Thursday, May 03, 2007

We have ourselves a situation

He says, "Ya want a gun? I'll give you one."
She says, "Boy, you talking crazy." - Bob Dylan

A few, brief late-to-the massacre observations about Virginia Tech.

First of all, I think it's necessary that we admit the possibility that sometimes a lone nut is just a lone nut. Mental illness is not always induced and simulated, and people can be complex and screwed-up enough in their own right to imagine reasons for going to the slaughter.

Further, as Lisa Pease wisely comments, "all official narratives are always just stories." So, when we come to episodes like V Tech, perhaps it's legitimate for us to deconstruct them as episodes. We should ask, Who wrote this?, and Is the storyteller also the director? We should try out different scenarios, and see which makes the best sense of the action and the characters. We have an interpretive edge because we know other scenarios exist. Most viewers - and let's admit it; that's all most of us are to such scenes - are content to be told what they're watching, and don't own the responsibility to interpret events, or even to remember what they've seen before.

I'm not going to argue the case here that Cho Seung-Hui was a mind-controlled assassin. Kevin at Cryptogon has already done it. I won't say, this is what happened, but I will say, especially thanks to what else we know of America's shadow history (and not just America's), that this is a plausible scenario.

So, admitting this account into our circle of probabilities, let's then ask, Why? What could be the motive here? And perhaps not just here, but for other eruptions of violence that may only appear random.

The most frequently cited I've seen - usually from theorists on the right who like to say left and right is a NWO hoax - has been provocation for crackdown. (Or, Look out - they're a-comin' for our guns!) In this scenario, Dennis Kucinich is one unlikely head of the Beast. "Kucinich is seemingly willing to entertain the notion that 9/11 was carried out by a ruthless gang of bloodthirsty Neo-Fascists within our own government," writes Paul Joseph Watson, "yet he thinks we should all hand in our only means of defense against such thugs when the men in black ski-masks come knocking." To some, Kucinich represents confirmation: "Conspiracy Planet's previous assertion that gun control extremists will use the latest so-called 'school shootings' to move along their anti-American agenda to disarm US 'civilians' has proven to be correct."

I don't see that. But then, neither do I envision the Libertarian's American nightmare of over-governance , martial law and mass detention. What I see instead is federal authority withdrawing from civilian oversight and replaced by for-profit contractors because it has better things to do than improve the lives of its subjects; things which usually make them worse. And maybe not incidentally so.

The occasional slaughter and ineffectual response of authorities presents portraits of order breaking itself down, and creates the impression We're on our own. Such episodes provoke the purchase and the secreting of firearms by citizens, and not their removal by the state, however scary Dennis Kucinich may seem. So perhaps, as in New Orleans, the point is not a crackdown, but a crack-up.

Why? America is an unsustainable venture, but its ruling class means to survive well beyond the exhaustion of its public wealth, oil and water. This may now depend upon how well it induces and exploits the misery of its people, even as it extricates itself from the expectations of its alleviation.

Just a scenario.


Blogger iridescent cuttlefish said...

Well, I started this comment in response to the same questions Jeff raised on the last thread, but he's rephrased them a little differently here, so here it belongs (I think). We are forced to speculate on what the hell is going on because we know we're not getting the straight story from our crooked media. The interesting thing to me about the resultant conversation between Jeff, the rightwing conspiracy theorists and our little pod of doubters is that we're so entranced by the duelling narratives that we've lost sight of the real question: How will we survive?

Jeff's latest suggestion, that we're being left to our own devices while the elite look to their own (or hand over the reins to the Blackwater system of governance) is certainly novel, but it doesn't ring true for me because there's too much at stake. Why would the worldkillers go to all the trouble of suppressing the emerging sustainable world (free energy in its many forms & the path toward reinheriting the earth through a harmonic restructuring of how we live, learn, work and think), only to turn their backs on the frightened hobbits before the flaming eye reclaimed the ring? That's just leaving too much to chance.

We have the solutions to all of our ills right now (see my longish comment near the end of the last thread for details) and still the fat lady's dirge has not been broadcast. (Or is it dystopia that will not be televised?) Sure, implementing those solutions won't be easy, at least not while the Owners are pressing their advantage through their serial, interlocking monopolies (energy, raw materials, Big Pharma, insurance, chemical combines, for-profit "medicine," etc) and their agencies of control (corporate under-written fake politics, tightly controlled monotone media, compliant lapdog scientific orthodoxy, untouchable secret police arms of the National Security State, etc, etc), but if they just let their guard down now, just when significant percentages of the spoonfed are gagging on their daily gruel, the truth might just set us free after all.

Maybe it's just a question of not bothering with the meta-narrative anymore--if the individual pieces of the Machine are working so flawlessly, who needs the embarrassingly stupid official story anymore? Free market, spreading democracy, the march of scientific progress...who really believes that shit anymore? Certainly not the dispossessed. Or even the casually intuitive, much less their more rigorous cousins.

Or maybe it's just the lull before the next Pearl Harbor. That was a nice, sunny day, wasn't it?

5/03/2007 01:34:00 PM  
Blogger old green eyes said...

You wrote:

"America is an unsustainable venture, but its ruling class means to survive well beyond the exhaustion of its public wealth, oil and water. This may now depend upon how well it induces and exploits the misery of its people, even as it extricates itself from the expectations of its alleviation."

Might this pertain to ALL ruling classes, not just to those under the stars and stripes? Is this just a horrendous extension of the survival of the fittest meme?

There are clues for understanding mundane happenstances to be found in the dynamics of our solar system. The seed that was planted in the sixties is now approaching it's waxing "square" and it's attendant termoil is becoming more and more evident all round the globe. Remember that when a new sprout emrges it must break through the crust!

5/03/2007 03:35:00 PM  
Blogger Mark said...

Jeff said:

"First of all, I think it's necessary that we admit the possibility that sometimes a lone nut is just a lone nut. Mental illness is not always induced and simulated, and people can be complex and screwed-up enough in their own right to imagine reasons for going to the slaughter."

Come on, stitch some common questions together first: who, what, where, when and possibly why

1. Who is this guy? The accomplice? Or trainer? Was he in a Ryder truck at Oklahoma City in 1995, as well? Who is he? Why is Cho and the guy in identical U.S. Marines outfits?

2. Why were the Feds Ordering the VA Police To Stand Down, according to the local police? Was the havoc an intentional federal idea? Remember, we almost assuredly live in a world run by complete psychopaths.

It was after all Gonzales's shining tarnished moment in the news right before this potential sleeper awakened and handily dropped off his corporate media footage for them to run on TV, over and over, then went back to killing. Gonzales ended up on CSPAN-3, only, I think.

3. What about the known DARPA lab built 7,000 feet under a nearby mountain, working on unknown top secret projects some of which are rumored to be mind control? What about the Virginia Tech institutional connections to DARPA itself?

"As "News Commentary" on the Truthseeker website notes, Virginia Tech is an "active partner" with DARPA, the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency. In addition, the CIA actively recruits VT students, holding events the spook agency bills as "career information" sessions.

"News Commentary" claims "Blacksburg, VA houses a US government ABOVE TOP SECRET underground laboratory (in the side of a local Blacksburg mountain) that develops in conjunction with DARPA, weapons such as human robotic mind control programming." A Google search, however, turns up no mention of mind control experiments, of course, but there is plenty of reference to the "Deep Underground Science and Engineering Laboratory... 7,000 feet under Butt Mountain" in Blacksburg....

Of course, all of this secret and not so secret activity on the Virginia Tech campus and environs is not definitive evidence Cho Seung-Hui was a government produced mind-control assassin. However, it does indicate VT serves as a hub for experimental and prototype DoD technologies.

It is no secret the Pentagon has had a keen interest in electromagnetic weapons for some time. "Electronic mind-control research is not new," CNN reported in 1985. "A scientific milestone in this area came in the 1960s when Dr. Jose Delgado demonstrated remote control over a charging bull." Military affairs specialist Chuck DeCaro told CNN: a "scientist, who did not want his identity revealed ... employed by the U.S. Government ... has done secret RF weapons research. He believes that tests done with the [Soviet developed] Lida and similar machines prove that humans are susceptible to remote alterations of mood and awareness... . Certain kinds of weak electromagnetic signals work exactly like drugs, and so the promise is that anything you can do with drugs you could do with the right electromagnetic signal." Dr. Robert Becker, a pioneer in the field of bioeffects of electromagnetism, added: "As far as I'm concerned, the potential that this has for producing a direct psychoactive effect upon the total American population is there, has never been disproven."

The late professor Dr. Gerhard Beyer of Virginia Polytechnic Institute at Virginia Tech broke a significant part of the "magnetic code," and no doubt this was of interest to DARPA and the Pentagon."

4. And why did Cho's sister work for the State Department?

"BTW, Cho's older sister Sun-Kyung works for black bag intelligence agency called McNeil Technologies, a firm contracted by the State Department to manage reconstruction efforts in Iraq. "

5. Cho was pretty robotic, calm, incredibly practiced, and trained in what he was doing given the guns he was using, and the University didn't make any kind of announcements until long after they knew what was going on.

"Charles Mesloh, Professor of Criminology at Florida Gulf Coast University, told NBC 2 News that he was shocked Cho could have killed 32 people with two handguns absent expert training.


Mesloh said the killer performed like a trained professional, "He had a 60% fatality rate with handguns - that's unheard of given 9 millimeters don't kill people instantly," said Mesloh, stating that the handguns Cho used were designed for "plinking at cans," not executing human beings.

Cho was certainly no slouch, in the two hour gap between the first reported shootings and the wider rampage that would occur later in the morning, during which time the University completely failed to warn the students despite having loudspeakers stationed throughout the campus, Cho had time to film a confession video, transfer it to his computer, burn it onto a DVD, package it up, travel to the post office, post the package, and travel back to his dorm room to retrieve his guns and then travel back to the opposite end of the campus to resume the killing spree. The almost inconceivable speed of Cho's actions become more suspicious when we recall initial reports that there were two shooters."

...[and this is just like every other MKULTRA allowed killer in U.S. history, as detailed in Dave McGowan's book:] "In December 2005 -- more than a year before Monday's mass shootings -- a district court in Montgomery County, Va., ruled that Cho presented "an imminent danger to self or others." [Which was the "oh, goody, he's ready" green light to release him.] That was the necessary criterion for a detention order, so that Cho, who had been accused of stalking by two female schoolmates, could be evaluated by a state doctor and ordered to undergo outpatient care," reports ABC News, " but despite the court identifying the future killer as a risk, they let him go.


Investigators believe that Cho Seung Hui, the Virginia Tech murderer, had been taking anti-depressant medication at some point before the shootings, according to The Chicago Tribune.

Columbine shooters Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold, as well as 15-year-old Kip Kinkel, the Oregon killer who gunned down his parents and classmates, were all on psychotropic drugs. Scientific studies proving that prozac encourages suicidal tendencies in young people are voluminous and span back nearly a decade.

Jeff Weise, the Red Lake High School killer was on prozac, "Unabomber" Ted Kaczinski, Michael McDermott, John Hinckley, Jr., Byran Uyesugi, Mark David Chapman and Charles Carl Roberts IV, the Amish school killer, were all on SSRI psychotropic drugs.

Since these deadly drugs are prevalent in almost all mass shooting incidents, where is the call to ban prozac? Why is the knee-jerk reaction always to attack the 2nd Amendment rights of Americans to self-defense, a right that was exercised in January 2002 when students subdued a shooter at another Virginia university before he could kill more than three people because they were allowed guns on campus?

[i.e., less guns, pragmatically put in our non-idealistic world, mean only criminals have guns.]

Why are the deeper reasons behind what motivates young men to kill pushed aside while control freaks demand that law-abiding citizens be disarmed of the only thing that can protect them from such madmen?


Cho wearing a U.S. Marines uniform [Obviously, taken during some kind of MKULTRA training. Where else are you going to get this?]

Such details only fan the flames of accusations that Cho could have been a Manchurian Candidate, a mind-controlled assassin.

The CIA's program to create mind-controlled assassins that could be triggered by code words, MK ULTRA, is not a conspiracy theory, it's a historical fact documented by declassified government files and Senate hearings. President Bill Clinton himself had to apologize for the program before he left office.

On the Senate floor in 1977, Senator Ted Kennedy said, "The Deputy Director of the CIA revealed that over thirty universities and institutions were involved in an 'extensive testing and experimentation' program which included covert drug tests on unwitting citizens 'at all social levels, high and low, native Americans and foreign."

One such victim of these experiments was Cathy O'Brien, who immediately after the shootings re-iterated the revelations in her latest book, that Blacksburg Virginia [around this very University where Cho was] is a central location for mind control programs that are still ongoing today.

CIA mind control programs can be tracked back to the 1950's and Project BLUEBIRD, later renamed ARTICHOKE. From blogger Kurt Nimmo;

“BLUEBIRD was approved by the CIA director on April 20, 1950. In August 1951, the Project was renamed ARTICHOKE. BLUEBIRD and ARTICHOKE included a great deal of work on the creation of amnesia, hypnotic couriers, and the Manchurian Candidate,” writes Colin A. Ross, MD. “ARTICHOKE documents prove that hypnotic couriers functioned effectively in real-life simulations conducted by the CIA in the early 1950’s. The degree to which such individuals were used in actual operations is still classified…. BLUEBIRD and ARTICHOKE were administered in a compartmented fashion. The details of the programs were kept secret even form other personnel within the CIA…. The BLUEBIRD/ARTICHOKE materials establish conclusively that full Manchurian Candidates were created and tested successfully by physicians with TOP SECRET clearance from the CIA…. As well as being potential couriers and infiltration agents, the subjects could function in effect as hypnotically controlled cameras. They could enter a room or building, memorize materials quickly, leave the building, and then be amnesic for the entire episode. The memorized material could then be retrieved by a handler using a previously implanted code or signal, without the amnesia being disturbed. Hypnosis was not the mind control doctors’ only method for creation of controlled amnesia, however. Drugs, magnetic fields, sound waves, sleep deprivation, solitary confinement, and many other methods were studied under BLUEBIRD and ARTHICHOKE.”

Researchers into supposed "lone nut" assassinations time and time again run across evidence pointing to CIA mind control experimentation. The best example is Sirhan Sirhan, Bobby Kennedy's assassin. Sirhan was found to be in a completely trance-like state after pulling the trigger and couldn't even remember shooting Kennedy when asked about the incident days later. Sirhan's lawyer, Lawrence Teeter, has presented convincing evidence that Sirhan was under mind control.

Either way you cut it, Seung-Hui Cho was a victim of brainwashing and mind control. The right questions are not being asked...

--and definitely not being asked by Jeff.

And remember it additionally distracted from pro-Bush terrorist Posada being allowed to roam around on bail:

Posada’s release exposes Washington’s hypocrisy
author: Alan Woods

The decision by the US authorities to release the terrorist Luis Posada Carriles exposes before the eyes of the world the hypocritical attitude of the United States government to terrorism.

Posada Carriles Posada is the author of the 1976 attack that brought down a Cubana de Aviación civilian airliner off the coast of Barbados, which cost the lives of 73 innocent people.

By releasing this criminal, the US authorities have admitted that they support terrorism when this is in the interests of US imperialism. Bush's so-called war on terrorism therefore stands exposed as a shameful deception. In an editorial of April 20, the Los Angeles Times condemned the decision:

"With a misguided decision upholding bail for Cuban-born terrorist Luis Posada Carriles, the U.S. 5th Circuit Court of Appeals in New Orleans has done more than free a frail old man facing unremarkable immigration charges. It has exposed Washington to legitimate charges of hypocrisy in the war on terror...."

So no more Posada and Gonzales.
Hello Cho.

How many sleepers are waiting out there to be activated?

You know they assuredly have them all over the place, just wanting for the proper allowances to 'spend one' like a trump card.

With a little intentional 'dropping the ball', they can roam around and cause havoc--turning front page headlines exposing Bush as a terrorist (like Posada story) or Gonzales (as criminally removing federal officials) into mere Section C news overnight.

On the extensive network of these:

Title: COLUMBINE school shootings were MONTAUK BOY psyop terror operation
Date: 2004.08.15 07:46
Description: This is transcribed from Alfred Bielek: Digital Video Autobiography, 6 hours, Part III "This is one aspect I would like to get public. This Montauk Boys program is very subversive, it is very invasive, it inserts in many areas of our society in a very unobvious manner. But it’s very real. . . ."


What the ultimate purpose is—-again, at that time I got no answers as to what the purpose was or what it was to be used for—-but it is fairly obvious today because all you have to do is look around you, you can see the mayhem that has been created. And particularly in terms of the school shootings, where in some cases these kids act absolutely blankly with blank minds and then, snapped out of it later. Particularly the Conyers incident exactly one month after the Columbine operation—-where the kid was shooting quite randomly in the yard, hit no one. The assistant principal came out, talked him into dropping the gun, putting it down, which he did. Then he put his arms around him, and the kid, snapped—jolted, like that [made shocklike arm movements], and said "where am I? What's going on?" He had absolutely no recollection of what he did.


. . .and one of the things that turned up was a term, the Trenchcoat Mafia. And this term came out of Eric's mouth and Diamond's [unclear] mouth. They considered themselves members of the trenchcoat mafia. Others showed up at the site, which was not publicly reported. . . . .and I might admit that my #2 son admitted that he was in the Trenchcoat Mafia, that he was in government employ as an assassin, this is one of the things they use the Montauk Boys for. I'm not happy to say this about my #2 son. I won't go into how I happened to learn that he was, but, I did. . .

And, this whole operation the Trenchcoat Mafia can be traced to an Air Force base, now closed, in upstate New York—the same air base where Eric Harris's father [Columbine shooting spree kid], in the Air Force, came from and was stationed with his family for many years.

Now what are the Trenchcoat Mafia if I may explore this slightly. They are considered an offshoot of the Montauk Boys program which is specifically, uh, shall we say, guardedly, religiously-oriented. They're Satanists.

The whole nine yards of the Trenchcoat Mafia are Satanists and Satan worshippers, as way Eric and Dylan [unclear word] this was never made public. And they took great care not to make that public. This whole group was considered a Satanic group in origin. If you remember in the public discourse—in the videos and everything they showed on T.V. and the little bit they showed about the diaries—one of the things that's happened in the shootings in the library, and this was noted in the public press when Eric or Dylan it doesn't matter which one it was went up to one of the girls, grabbed her around the neck, essentially, and pointed a gun at her head, and says "Do you believe in God?" This one particular girl said yes. Bang. Shot dead.

If she had said no, she would have lived. This was among other things a Satanic operation in terms of the orientation of the boys being used. This is not good news, and I'm sure it's not pleasant to a lot of people, and I don't wish to [unclear], though examine the facts for yourself.

There's another aspect to the new Montauk Boys program, and that's what they call the "Jesus Freaks"—pardon the expression—but their the ones that have gone off the deep end of religion, in the sense of the Christian orientation. Of course the two are opposed.

But their both used! And they have their place. I do not know what their place is.

And there's still the group in the middle, shall we say, uh, mid-line America, the middle cross-section of society totally, ah, um, not out of line, completely in the norm, and of course there's still Montauk Boys in that group and now Montauk girls. They are very unobvious because of the fact that they fit into the mainstream of society.

So much for the Montauk Boys and the Montauk Girls. It's an ongoing program. It's not fun, no one knows when they may strike next or if there is some major operation in store for the future.

To this date I have not seen a massive operation, there was only one other I could report that, uh, was, to my mind, indicative of a massive Montauk boys operation and that was back some years ago, I believe around '88, '89... where on that night, large cities from, large cities across the U.S., sprung up with fires simultaneously from Los Angeles--not to New York City—but to many other cities, riots and burning the city.

And the police were hands off in Los Angeles. I do not know if that implied the same action in other cities. They let it go for a period of time and then they were told to close down on it. It was an orchestrated demonstration of something. Don't ask me what. Other than, it was obviously. . . Montauk Boys.

Let's get off the Montauk Boys and move to something else.

5/03/2007 04:00:00 PM  
Blogger Unknown said...

In one of Cho's videos he says (paraphrasing), "I could have ran away. I could have escaped. But I did this for my children, brothers and sisters, whose heads you are fucking with." Who is he talking to here? From whom was he going to escape?

This sure sounds like something more is going on.


5/03/2007 05:02:00 PM  
Blogger Unknown said...

The "She Said No" thing has been debunked, effectively, I believe.

5/03/2007 08:54:00 PM  
Blogger ericswan said...

Jeff..I'm not sure if you are extricating or extirpating yourself from your own cause celebre. All your links point one way and all your comments point to it's opposite. Are you "stuck" in your garden or are you "weeding"?

One of your links suggested that the timing for this massacre was in effect to push the story of Cheney's impeachment to the back page. Others have suggested that it pushed the Attourney General's story off the page and still others have suggested that it pushed the story of a failing U.S. quarterly report on the economy out of the news altogether.

But what does it matter what story is on the front page? The only one thing that is affected by the news these days is the price of gold and silver. Therein lies the rub.

5/03/2007 09:42:00 PM  
Blogger brenda said...

iridescent cuttlefish said...
How will we survive?

Many won't. The rest will by doing what we've always done, build sustainable communities based on what actually works rather than myths and theories.

Maybe it's a good thing that people are beginning to understand that "We are on our own." Those who realize this important fact are the ones who will survive. Those who are still dependent and subservient to old and worn out social structures will not.

it doesn't ring true for me because there's too much at stake. Why would the worldkillers go to all the trouble of suppressing the emerging sustainable world

Could it be that your hopes for "free energy" are misplaced? Could it be that the salesmen hawking their over unity devices are really just con men? I think so. In fact, the evidence is overwhelming that there are no such things.

Mark spammed...
Jesus Mark, ya think you could just post a link instead? It's really rude to comment spam you know. REALLY rude.

5/04/2007 01:15:00 AM  
Blogger Unknown said...

It seems to me that we are caught in a conundrum. We want to believe in democracy, but are the decisions of the democracy determined by elites or by individuals? I suspect Jeff desires that the General Will prevails over both elite opinion and individual choice.
The right to self-defense and the right to voluntarily exchange value for value appear to him morally abhorrent because of his Canadian-conditioned worldview, but the alternative is the arbitrary decisions of the few, the elite. If nationalist, central-control democracy is impossible, what are we to choose? Conservative de-centralization or "progressive" centralization?

In America. we are suffering from "conservative" centralization, but progressives reject the idea of de-centralization. To this American Libertarian, the answer is clear: take this "democratic" Leviathan down by any honorable means. Any democracy beyond the scale of the town meeting can't work. "Representative democracy" only rewards the conniving, not the General Will.

By the way, though I'm pro-gun, I'm cheering on the anti-war, anti-Patriot Act Kucinich on the Democratic side as much as I'm cheering Ron Paul on the Republican side.

5/04/2007 01:48:00 AM  
Blogger Mark said...

"Brenda", I think i can speak for Eric as well (since I enjoyed his Bearden post one thread back as the shortest and most concise little discussion on the Tesla/Morgan relationship, and I didn't find your calling it 'rude' anything except non-sequitur).

On the contrary, from your contributions on the last two posts you have shown hostile terseness can be the rude bits. You're not a "science skeptic", you pose as one, since you have already made your mind up about many things before any examination. I don't know what game you are playing at, and I'm sorry you have a history of depression (as you said), I just think that bringing things to the table to mull over is far more important an activity of sharing, instead of playing Inquisition as you do.

5/04/2007 04:16:00 AM  
Blogger Mark said...

1. Something else is this picture link taken at Virginia Tech, which is strange. It's someone Asian arrested by what look like state police at Virginia Tech.

Who is he? Where did he go?

2. Where did that Caucasian "U.S. Marines brother" of Cho in the other picture I posted, go?

3. Indeed, Emanuel. What about these "brothers and sisters" Cho talks about--which belies the false story put out that Cho is "a loner"?

4. And what about reports that Cho was 'suicided by a shot to the back of the head.'? (The Cryptogon link and its comments are full of information, some not always linked to any other reports however. One person there reports that the news media somehow while the shootings were going on somehow already was speaking as if they knew who it was as well as saying Cho had a U.S. military background.

5. Most deaths are presumably with three simultaneous shots. This is far more than the number of bullets Cho's cover story has him buying.

6. Shades of 9-11 style planted evidence (like Atta's fluttering passport out of the pocket, out of the plane, out of the fireball, backwards out of the explosion, to be found by New York City Police on the pavement below undamaged): Va Tech police conveinently found (this is assuredly a lie or just a plant?) on Cho's body the receipt for the guns, even though supposedly the guns he used people are claming had filed off all the serial numbers. It's silly to think that if the story is going to be Cho filed off the serial numbers of the guns, and then put the receipt in his pocket that day of the shooting. Any rumination on that? It seems to mean that the actual guns utilized in the day or seized were not the one's Cho bought, and the 'receipt for the guns in the killer's pocket, case closed' is a transparent device to attempt to link guns of other origins that were found with filed off serial numbers to Cho.

7. Why did the federals hide the dead students' bodies for several days and not even let the parents see them, from some reports? Were they messing with the evidence of multiple guns and multiple shooters?

8. The fact that the original story was "two shooters" makes more sense, with perhaps one of them shooting Cho as the fall guy at the end and escaping. Though who is that other Asian guy being arrested?

This was a well planned operation. There is no way that 'amateur lone nut Cho' story fits the accurate deadliness or his supposed "suicided" end.

5/04/2007 04:41:00 AM  
Blogger DeTokeville said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

5/04/2007 09:14:00 AM  
Blogger DeTokeville said...

CHARLESTON, W.Va. -- Since 1968, federal law has prohibited the sale of guns to anyone adjudged mentally ill. But more than half the states cannot - or will not - supply the necessary mental health records to the FBI database that is used to conduct background checks on would-be gun buyers.

That could change following last week's massacre at Virginia Tech. The U.S. House is considering a bill that would encourage states to share mental health records with the federal government by giving them more than $1 billion in grants to help cover the costs.


5/04/2007 09:17:00 AM  
Blogger cecilia said...

the queen visiting virginia - on a visit, probably arranged months beforehand, paying some sort of spooky ritual homage to the sacrificial victims conveniently created just days before her visit.
how does this happen?

5/04/2007 09:48:00 AM  
Blogger ELFIS said...


I agree that we shouldn't jump to conclusions, especially in such complex cases as this Vtech shooting.

However, as several folks have mentioned, there are innumerable connections that seem to paint a pretty "clear" picture.

I don't think anyone else mentioned the fact that Cho was from the same high school as another Spree Shooter from less than a year ago:

Confirmed: Cho went to same high school as other shooter…

For School, Several Ties to Shootings
April 18, 2007

More Details Released From Fatal Police Shooting
Police: Kennedy Had Numerous Weapons
UPDATED: 8:04 pm EDT May 9, 2006
"Kennedy was a 2005 graduate of Westfield High School."

Virginia Tech Gunman Led Quiet Life in High School
Tuesday, April 17, 2007
By Melissa Drosjack
"'It was surprising,' Lauren Martin, 21, who had classes with Cho at Westfield High School, told Cho graduated in 2003.",2933,266624,00.html

And of course the news bits about an identified suspect who was a "known" Chinese National would surely be interesting to learn more about:

Was There Another Va. Tech Shooter?

VIDEO: Repressed report on real Va Tech gunman
Link to Video

True Va. Tech gunman: 6-foot ChiCom assassin?

Feds kidnap parents of VA. Tech mk-patsy Cho
Link to Video

Finally .... "America is an unsustainable venture, but its ruling class means to survive well beyond the exhaustion of its public wealth, oil and water."

I hate the thought that you've given up on the possibility that the ideals of America have been lost forever. Of course, that may be a little easier being all the way up there North of the border.

That quote above also reminds me of something I'm reminded of more and more with each passing day ... the possible truths in the "hoax" known as "ALTERNATIVE 3."

- sMilos

5/04/2007 10:17:00 AM  
Blogger ericswan said...

Mark..a CNN interview with the "second" girl that played dead in the German class said that she didn't know that Cho had committed suicide in the same room til someone told her a couple of days later. The fact that we haven't been told his medical history that indicated at least 18 months of contact from the time he was arrested for "harassing" a fellow student was all I needed to know that this was blackops.

5/04/2007 10:57:00 AM  
Blogger ericswan said...

Moving right along..One of the best synopsis I have ever seen on the subject scalar technology is right here and right now..
It starts out slow with a sermon, but the guest speaker comes out later with a presentation that is hard to believe made it to google.

5/04/2007 11:00:00 AM  
Blogger iridescent cuttlefish said...

Boy oh boy, there's weirdness in the air around here of late. Don't really even know where to start. Maybe with the ones I respect most. Mark, I'm trying to get a feel for your antagonism toward Jeff--do you really think he's been turned by some manner of fuckery most heinous? I know such things probably can and do happen, but why would anyone bother? No offense toward Jeff or the readers of this blog, but we are very small potatoes, folks. What can the opinions of a few thousand thrill-meme seekers matter?

This kind of gets to a larger point that's been touched on in this thread a few times--this question of whether the democratic ideals on which America was supposedly founded are best served by centralization of power, etc, etc. Are we kidding ourselves here, or do we really still buy into the myth so deeply that we believe there us anything even remotely resembling representative democracy in the US? Perspective, people, perspective.

Forget, for a moment, the official story--you know, all that free market, spreading democracy, march of (scientific) progress stuff I was defecating on in the opening comment here--and look at the real policy, foreign and domestic, that's been at work in postwar America. (Yes, you can go back further still, but let's keep the focus on this period for now.) As Bill Blum explains in his many excellent books, it doesn't matter which "party" is "in control," the long history of US intervention in the affairs of other countries is based, not just on economic imperialism (which is certainly true, as its code word, "American interests" suggests) but on undermining the possibility of self-determination for these countries. It is an orchestrated campaign against sovereignty itself.

We do this through the perpetuation of a worldview based on false dichotomies. The reason that Sounder so tirelessly attacks these dualisms is because they are the framework of control. Read his blog, read the intro to Blum's Killing Hope and you'll begin to see (if you didn't already know it) that the real purpose of the Cold War was to homogenize and destabilize the many cultures of the world, to prevent them from creating sustainable, self-sufficient societies and economies.

On the homefront (and yes, there's a perfectly good reason why Homeland Security is a direct translation--on so many levels--of the Nazi office out of which the Gestapo ran, the Reichssicherheitsamt) we are policed by methods both infinitely more subtle and more effective than those which controlled our counterparts, the good Germans, in another, more transparent tyranny. We live in Joe Bageant's Simulacran Republic, which shields us from the harsh reality of our predicament far more effectively than Goebbel's primitive moral cacoon. Yes, the Germans knew about the camps, even though they were instructed not to think about them, but are we any more (or less) aware of our role in the Rape of the World?

Kucinich doesn't matter. Neither do Ron Paul or Dick Cheney; these are but clowns on the world's stage. Would real power ever reveal itself, when it's gone to such lengths to hide a simple truth like the fact that all of our intractable crises--war, poverty, disease (and other other apocolyptic horsemen you care to name, such as the host of environmental degradations we now see coming home to roost)--are not accidental, inevitable or, most importantly, irreparable? I know we've been brainwashed to accept these things as sold, but plain truth is that all these things are not true. Our problems are manufactured problems. Everyone talks about "rabbit-hole" experiences when it should come as no great surprise that Everything You Know Is Wrong (once you accept the basic premise that governments lie.) If they lie about little things, why wouldn't they lie about big things?

I know that most of you have heard my sermons before, but let me put this in a closer context to this discussion. First you have to ignore the trenches that have been dug to prevent you from reaching the grail--it's easy 'cuz they're not real anyway. Forget the human nature argument--the only thing that Milgram and the other Lord of the Flies studies illustrate is that we are infinitely malleable, not that we are inherently evil. (That's just more fake dualism.) Read instead that Frans de Waal excerpt I keep linking.

Forget also all that Peak Oil doomerism--we don't need no stinking oil and we never did. Nor do we need some miracle technology, the fabled "silver bullet" meme. And no, Brenda, we don't need free energy machines (not that they're "impossible," mind you, they're just irrelevant.) In your final response in the last thread you revealed an amazing, thoroughly un substantiated faith in the notion that truth cannot be suppressed. doesn't matter that the peer-reviewed paper syndrome keeps any and all "contrary science" from experimentation & acceptance because the intrepid ethical scientist can always make a web page? And this is going to procure funding and impact the orthodoxy because...?

What I'm talking about for solutions is not some sort of miracle technology--again, we don't need silver bullets or "over-unity devices." What we need are solutions by design. (Well, there are some monopolies that will have to be gotten around in one way or another, but that's another issue.)

The solutions, as I said, are very, very simple. Start with full employment--watch how nervous the champions of the "free market" get when the "laws" of supply and demand start forcing capital to compete for labor.

Then, start making things out of the forbidden materials (see Mark's raw materials regime stuff). If Henry Ford was able to make a type of plastic, in 1941, that was many times stronger than steel at less than half the weight, and which required no petroleum or other environmentally harmful products and processes, why is it that we can't seem to do that today? Coincidence, Brenda? Market forces? Do you read links (since you object to lengthy quotations as "spam"), or do you just keep talking as if no argument but your internal dialogue, your implicit faith in the bubbly goodness of the world, has any merit? Is WWII still the Big One, the Last Good War for you? Ah, trust!

After these basic steps are taken, we can then use the new public works projects to dismantle our toxic cities, clean up those poisons (and all the others sitting in our riverbeds and oceans and farmlands and air) using ericswan's zeolite and stuff like this and the many other proven techniques and materials that exist for this purpose.

Then, we rebuild, making our buildings energy & water self-sufficient (yes, Brenda, using design, not magic boxes or the lint from Bearden's beard or any of your other "con-game" psuedo-sketicisms.) There at least 6 different, low cost designs that actually produce more energy & water than they consume, are impervious to fire, flooding & storms and which create communities without gates or glaring disparities. All without magic. If you're interested, check out Big Gav's survey of the field.

Here's the question to me--why are we talking about whether democracy can survive when it's a fookin' illusion in the first place and what sense does it make that one of our brightest slashers of veils would be working for the Dark Side when no one (percentage-wise) really reads his stuff anyway and he never talks about the actual alternatives, the way out on which I've just delivered yet another sermon? Mark, Toward the Bioregional State comprises a far greater danger than Rigorous Intuition--aside from getting deleted from the fasci-Wiki, have they come for you with their gentle persuasions?

Why would they care about what we think?

5/04/2007 12:51:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...


Excellent post, except I don't know what you're on about with Mark. I think Mark's challenge to Jeff is entirely legitimate and warranted....and I share his sentiment, to an extent.

Anyhow, Jeff's just another person to me...not some idol in which to pay homage. I suppose he's being true to the description of his character, which is Cautiously Pessimistic. I, on the other hand, am Cynically Optimistic.

Jeff's a big boy and can answer for himself. There's no need to defend fact, the mere fact you think he needs defense says something.

I surmise the opening paragraph of his latest post was to appease ol PP for whom Jeff has a great fondness. Follow that relationship....there seems to be something more to it than meets the eye.

5/04/2007 01:28:00 PM  
Blogger Dr. Bombay said...

Jeff: While were talking about
"assassin's" have you heard about
this new book
coming out called "Brothers"?
It was written by a Mr. Talbot
over at Salon, and in the book
he claims that Bobby Kennedy knew
from day one that his brother
John's murder was part of a
larger conspiracy. Mr. Talbot
also claims that it was Bobby
Kennedy himself that took possession of what was left of
JFK's brain and many of the autopsy
photos to use as evidence if anyone
was ever brought to trial. Though
Bobby always publicly backed the
Warren Comissions report, privately
he was telling his closest aides
that "when a Kennedy regains the
White House" we will have a real
investigation into JFK's murder.

5/04/2007 01:55:00 PM  
Blogger iridescent cuttlefish said...

Thanks, Shrub. I'm surprised I came across as defending Jeff, though, since I was essentially describing his (and our) irrelevance in the scheme of things. I like that "cynically optimistic" description, btw--I think it fits a lot of us here. Well, maybe not Richard, whose realism seems more stoically tragic , as long as we're groping for labels, or ericswan, who seems to have cornered irritably cryptic (just kidding, E--it's all just good clean fun, you know. Just like we used to describe psychonautical adventures where I come from...)

Hey, how serendipitous is that? My word verification just now was an abbreviation for "Dummkopf"! Coincidence, indeed.

5/04/2007 04:06:00 PM  
Blogger brenda said...

idescent cuttlefish
Just a note. You know, we probably aren't that far apart in our central beliefs. If we could talk face to face I bet we would agree 90% of the time. But the internet has this tendency to amplify differences and blow them out of proportion.

When I reply to someones post, and not just here either, I pick out those points where we disagree. That tends to distort things.

5/04/2007 05:46:00 PM  
Blogger boyhero said...


Off topic but I'd like to bring to the attention of your non UK based readers the "psychological illusionist" Derren Brown

His ways of manipulating people, their thoughts and behaviours are awesome to watch

In tonights TV show on Chnanel 4 he worked on a young student making her totally forget - for several days - that she'd been playing the piano since childhood.

He got her to perform live on the piano in what was, to her mind, her first ever attempt at playing to a live audience.

In previous shows, Derren has used "brain washing" techniques to get ordinary people to attempt to perform a robbery, acting against their nature.

A few weeks ago, Derren had a student in a catatonic trance within seconds before shipping the student off to be woken up in a photo booth on the other side of the world with no idea how he'd got there.

Derren demonstrates: Ultra quick trance inductions, Short term memory loss, over riding of establihed behaviours, imprinting of new beliefs and behaviours, long term hypnosis (days and weeks), ability to make people do things that are counter to the persons normal ethical and moral beliefs.

Clips of Derren Brown can be found on youtube.

5/04/2007 10:52:00 PM  
Blogger monax said...


5/04/2007 11:10:00 PM  
Blogger the proprietor said...

The most frequently cited I've seen - usually from theorists on the right who like to say left and right is a NWO hoax - has been provocation for crackdown. (Or, Look out - they're a-comin' for our guns!)

Come now ... are you saying they're not coming for the guns?

Virginia Tech murders could spur new gun laws

CNN wastes no time milking VA Tech murders to push gun control (a conservative blog -- beware! Conservatives are scary! lol ....

That's just for starters.

Kucinich has some good positions and means well, IMO, but well-meaning and wrong on a crucial issue can be a deadly combination.

"Kucinich is seemingly willing to entertain the notion that 9/11 was carried out by a ruthless gang of bloodthirsty Neo-Fascists within our own government," writes Paul Joseph Watson, "yet he thinks we should all hand in our only means of defense against such thugs when the men in black ski-masks come knocking."


I don't see that. But then, neither do I envision the Libertarian's American nightmare of over-governance , martial law and mass detention. What I see instead is federal authority withdrawing from civilian oversight and replaced by for-profit contractors

Which is happening in many instances, but this is a distinction without a difference -- as if totalitarianism-by-corporate-proxy could be any less evil than that administered directly by the state. The means of administration of repression hardly matter.

Again: "Fascism" leaves corporations intact. "Communism" absorbs them all into the State.


Again, this is where ideology will trip you up. "Right" ideology will blind you to the evils perpetrated under "right-wing" pretexts and "Left" ideology will equally blind one to evils committed under "left-wing" pretexts. (Both flavors of totalitarianism, by the way, rely heavily on disarming their victims.

One thing doesn't change: evil is evil, whether it's done with the right hand or the left.

Reach Out for the Bill of Rights:
Your Best Friends Might Be
on the Other Side of the Political Spectrum

By Aaron Zelman and Claire Wolfe

The phone rang at Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership in December 2001. A caller ordered dozens of Gran'pa Jack Bill of Rights booklets. Nothing unusual in that. But this caller wasn't a gun-rights activist, a conservative, or a libertarian. She was an avowed political liberal whose main cause was election reform in the wake of Al Gore's presidential defeat. She was organizing a rally whose theme was "Awake for the Bill of Rights." And as she said, "It's all for one and one for all. You can't separate the Bill of Rights and say, 'I want this part, but not that part''"


Before Aaron Russo even announced his independent candidacy for governor of Nevada in 2002, he already had the support of the Green Party, the Libertarians, the Reform Party, and the Natural Law Party -- a coalition almost unprecedented in American politics.1


In February 2002 we heard from a European Socialist seeking some common political ground. He was as concerned as any U.S. Bill of Rights activist about the growing worldwide surveillance state and its implications for freedom.


A young woman who contacted JPFO in January 2002 identified herself as a lesbian and a Reform Jew. She also wrote, "I have long detested the victim mentality that pervades the souls of Jewish and other minority groups as though we deserve special protection. I've always believed if you want special protection, buy yourself a .38 Special."

The political spectrum has always been more complex than the media, with its simplistic emphasis on a left-right dichotomy, would have us believe. The above examples give a brief -- but significant -- glimpse of that complexity.



5/04/2007 11:17:00 PM  
Blogger just_another_dick said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

5/05/2007 02:24:00 AM  
Blogger just_another_dick said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

5/05/2007 02:32:00 AM  
Blogger Mark said...

The Good Dr. Bombay said:

...have you heard about this new book coming out called "Brothers"? It was written by a Mr. Talbot over at Salon, and in the book
he claims that Bobby Kennedy knew from day one that his brother John's murder was part of a larger conspiracy."

I'll chime in on that.

The content of this book seems to have been written 40 years ago. It was a book literally banned in the USA (by corporate distribution, and potentially the interference of the U.S. intelligence services) for over 40 years. This was Farewell America: The Plot to Kill JFK.

This book noted the same point, that RFK knew, and that he was working with French Intelligence on piecing together what really happened. The book was published in the run up to the RFK election, and meant to be a popularizer of real JFK information assembled by French Intelligence that was left out of the Bonesman/BohoGrove-filled Warren Commission.

However, MKULTRAite Sirhan Sirhan was used as the fall guy for the multiple gun assassination on RFK--right after RFK won the California Democratic Primary--which basically guaranteed he would win the election soon, with that state's massive demographic in the Electoral College. So with RFK's death, the whole book project sort of is swallowed back up into the intelligence ether. The project of Warren Commission exposure as a lie was closed down by those involved--without RFK being alive.

The book had been originally published out of some crazy Lichtenstein front office--that never existed. It was was only available for the first time in 40 years, several years ago.

The point: this "Brothers" book is not saying much that new, though "it's new that its news" I guess (that it was mentioned at Salon instead of a wall of silence).

The blurb for Farewell America says:

"Originally published in Europe in 1968, this is a once-notorious, now-dated look at John Kennedy's assassination and an excoriation of the American scene in its aftermath. Turner (Rearview Mirror, etc.) explains in his introduction that the book was first published under mysterious circumstances and was "aimed at advancing the 1968 presidential campaign of Robert F. Kennedy," but its U.S. distribution was rapidly curtailed after RFK's death. The authors ("James Hepburn" is a pseudonym ["J'aime Hepburn" (I love Audrey Hepburn, it says in the intro]) conducted clandestine research among KGB and Interpol agents and French petroleum espionage specialists and relied on a rare, unmodified print of the famed Zapruder film. The book seethes with aggrieved passion in defending the Kennedys and their ideals, and seeks to defrock the "lone gunman" theory of JFK's assassination. Most of the text is a damning jeremiad, portraying pre-1964 America as a vicious, discriminatory oligarchy controlled by alliances of Big Steel and Big Oil, the military and organized crime, which all had reason to fear JFK's proposed reforms. [And potentially UFO disclosure, and Fed. Reserve challenges. Of course the only way JFK was elected was with vote fraud in Chicago arranged by his daddy Joe Kennedy who was very close to the late FDR (FDR appointed Wall street criminal Joe Kennedy as first head of the Security and Exchange Commission (SEC)].

According to "Hepburn," these interests combined with ultra-right-wing paramilitary groups like the Minutemen and Cuban exile groups to plan the assassination. Chapters discussing the assassination itself will be grimly convincing to some readers, with excellent analyses of the Secret Service's failures and the ambiguous roles played by the CIA and FBI during this tumultuous era. This is a pungent historical document, but its conspiracy theory is familiar by now, and its information has been surpassed by more recent studies such as Murder in Dealey Plaza, edited by James Fetzer.

Product Description
Originally published in 1968 in France under the title L’Amerique Brule (America Is Burning), Farewell America quickly became a best-seller in Europe in eleven languages. It was the inside story of the assassination of President John Kennedy. Although borrowing heavily from published critics of the Warren Commission Report, the book describes the roots of the Cold War, the linkage between large corporate and banking interests, the ever-growing American intelligence apparatus, and the international petroleum cartels that were lined up with a bevy of military brass and Mafia chieftains against JFK.

A combination of these powerful interests called "The Committee" coordinated all aspects of the murder, from setting the time and place of the shooting to the recruitment of the gunmen and the coverup of the conspiracy afterward. The bottom line was that enemies of JFK collaborated with the CIA to erase the perceived threat to their interests by John and Robert Kennedy.

Heady stuff for 1968. So incendiary, in fact, that importation of the book through Canada was squelched, allegedly at the instigation of the FBI. Farewell America wasn’t just another book about the assassination conspiracy; it bristled with restricted information about U.S. intelligence agencies, the White House, global business, and military and political affairs that had to have come from a knowlegdeable source, in this case, French intelligence. It also represented the surreptitious intrusion by those in French government circles into American politics, namely, the 1968 presidential elections.

And the prices are going up for it, only two copies there at 40.00.

The Kennedy that died in 2000 (in another one of those "strange airplane crashes" that makes no sense) was rumored to be interested in opening up that can of worms officially as well--and even perhaps working on an "RFK, II" strategy by getting into office first by either running against Bush in 2000, or running against Hillary's attempt at the Senate Seat from New York. His magazine "George" at the time seemed to be set up for just such an exposure.

And thanks for the link, Eric.

5/05/2007 12:05:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Come on, guys, do you really think the Kennedy's were some kind of Knights in Shining Armor? They were pond scum like all the rest....just another pond. Hell, RFK was a rabid anti-communist McCarthyite.

5/05/2007 12:56:00 PM  
Blogger iridescent cuttlefish said...


Thanks—I’ll accept your olive branch and offer you a hit of my peace-pipe in return. You might be right about several things in your comment—that we might actually find a lot of common ground if we were able to see “eye-to-eye,” for example. Language was, of course, originally oral/aural and accompanied by the languages of facial gesture and body posture.

Even though we do occasionally wax polemical here in this forum and elsewhere in this net thing, we are essentially talking to one another, but only through the one stripped down medium of the naked word. As a result, we tend to get both looser and more aggressive—the curse of anonymity. Although it has certain panoticon-ical connotations, I wonder how our communications would change if we saw each other as we typed…an impossible idea, I suppose, not because we can’t rig vid and sound to our machines (that’s easy; it’s how smart people make face-to-face “phone calls” overseas for free), but because then we wouldn’t have the time to compose, to search out sources and add that hyperlink dimension. Still, there is the germ of an idea there.

Other related items.

Tsoldrin was shocked in the last thread that we were bashing science, so I told him that it wasn’t the idea of science that I was attacking, but rather the way that the business of science was conducted. (For those of you unfamiliar, Tsoldrin is a committed rationalist, although not necessarily a materialist.) My tirades were directed toward the control of science by money, the fact that more than half the world’s scientists work for the military-industrial complex, etc, all of which is explained in that Moral Basis of Life chapter in Kötke’s Final Empire. But there is also another dimension to this that has been tickling my subconscious for a long time.

We talk about it all the time here—the question of how we know what we think we know, which is not just a low-brow approximation of epistemology. The question lurks in the title Jeff chose for this blog, which used I to mistakenly, maybe Freudianly, link as Rigorous Institution. (Has it ever really been either?) So, here’s where I’m going with this: there’s a reason that our host called this blog by that name. It’s not a political site, although it obviously has that dimension. It’s not a paranormal site, either, at least not in the typical scenario. I’m guessing that what Jeff was getting at was something a bit different from all those things, and last night, when I read Brenda’s message of truce and then two other messages in quick succession in my mailbox, the connections became clear as day.

The first was from my friend at NewHeadNews, who sent me a link to the best treatment of the bee story to date, Everything you didn't want to know about Colony Collapse Disorder, by Peter Dearman posted over at Guerrilla News Network . For the first time, I learned that the nature of the hyper commercialized bee business plays a huge role in what’s happened—that the bees affected are the "super-bees," pushed beyond their natural limits in terms of size and activity. Organically raised bees are not affected. We talk about the importance of diversity in Nature to the point where it’s given, an assumption to which we don’t really pay enough attention. It turns out that the natural pollinators are stressed and dying because of loss of habitat and the monocultural mode of corporate agribusiness. The article goes on to wonder if the media and the scientific community are going to address this part of the story—the most important part. There’s also a lot more—it’s well worth the time to read it.

So, I’m thinking about all these things and I keep reading, in the comment section there, where I come across this comment:

I agree that this problem could have been avoided if only the masters of public interest spent more time using their noggins, learning about science and ecology, and supporting the key facets of society that actually do need attention, rather than only dealing with “issues” that fit into their bureaucratic, management-obsessed worldview. To understand this philosophical perspective, I recommend reading Voltaire’s Bastards by John Ralston Saul. Here is a link to info on that book

Beagle17 @ 05/03/07 09:36:18

Naturally, I follow the link, but it’s from the fasci-Wiki, so I go searching on my own, where I find this interview with Mr. Saul. This is the mother load, friends. The opening line of the introduction is “John Ralston Saul has been called ‘an erudite Toronto gadfly whose bete noire is the abuse of thought and language at the hands of arrogant elites.’"
(Sound familiar?)

And this is the beginning of that interview:

Scott London: The subtitle of your book A Doubter's Companion is "A Dictionary of Aggressive Common Sense." Is there such a thing as aggressive common sense?

John Ralston Saul: Oh, absolutely. The reason I put the word "aggressive" in there, apart from the fact that it was kind of fun, was that we tend to think that only reason can be aggressive because it has the truth, and that all the other things are kind of namby-pamby in some sense. But it can be extremely aggressive, and extremely rude, and have as sharp teeth as anything else.

London: What you are really out to attack, I gather, is the corruption — or you might say the bastardization — of reason.

Saul: Well, you could put it that way. But I think, when I look back on it now, I guess what I'm really attacking is the isolation of reason. In other words, the obsession we have in the West with this idea that reason is the great quality. We've replaced God the father with reason, basically. Reason is a wonderful human quality, but it's just one of the human qualities and it's by putting it up on the throne all by itself that we've cause it to do the opposite of what it ought to be doing. We've turned it into unreason.
So we haven't actually corrupted it. By putting any human quality in power in isolation, you automatically make it do the opposite of what it's intended to do, because it isn't supposed to be in isolation, because we aren't people of only one quality — any more than in our normal lives. We don't have orgasms every three seconds. So you can't build a life around orgasms. We don't brush our teeth every three seconds. Well, why would we design our whole life around life around one single intellectual concept when there are lots of others?

London: Like what?

Saul: I have an idea of what the spectrum, if you like, of human qualities is. It seems to me we have about six qualities which are: common sense, creativity, ethics, intuition, memory, and reason.

London: So reason is just one of many faculties?

Saul: Yes. You'll notice that I gave them to you in alphabetical order because I don't think that any one of them is any more important than any other. This number of six seems to fit. I can't think of anything else that belongs there. There are lots of other things that are important, but it seems to me that they are the results of those qualities. People say, "what about compassion?" But compassion is really what comes out of the proper balancing of these qualities.

London: What's the difference between reason the way someone like Voltaire viewed it and the way that we advance it today?

Saul: Well, I think that Voltaire and all his friends were caught up in a very close battle, and it was a battle against arbitrary power and superstition — the king and the Church. We have misinterpreted what they were saying. They weren't saying, "Go out there and build a society based on reason." They were saying, "Go out there and build a humanist society — but you have a couple of weapons that are particularly good for a public fight." There are a lot of weapons that are kind of hard to use in a public fight, whereas reason is something that you can walk out the door with everyday — you can pull it out of its scabbard and stab people with it. It's very, very effective. You can knock down archbishops and popes with reason and they can't figure out what to do. The trouble is, they can knock you down with reason too. This is what people like Voltaire forgot.
I think that what they imagined was that when the Revolution, so to speak, was over, everybody would relax and reason would withdraw into its proper role as just another one of the qualities. There would be room to use the other qualities. Instead of that, of course, reason went mad and took over — and eliminated, if you like, the other qualities...

Now, what this suggests to me is not what the title of the interview proclaims, The End of Rationalism, but instead a realignment of the mental faculties or qualities that Saul talks about. This is different from what Colin Wilson (one the many brainy Wilsons I like to read) was getting at in his lost science writings (From Atlantis to the Sphinx, etc., but you can get the short answer in the famous Interview with Geoff Ward ). Wilson was basically saying that in previous epochs, especially in the time of the builders of the pyramids, reason was not pre-eminent, that something like intuition was. A different way of “knowing,” at any rate. His most famous quote is "Everyday consciousness is a liar," which explains a good deal about his approach to things “occulted, not occult.” He’s also called this other way of thinking “lunar consciousness,” which the left-brained rationalists will be tempted to call “looney consciousness,” but that’s okay, too. As long as you’re agnostic about all this, you’re safe.

So, after reading and re-reading all of these things, I check out the other message waiting for me, and it’s this link from ericswan to something called The Essene Gospel of Peace at a site I tend to avoid for uncertain reasons. (It just makes me nervous somehow.) This, however, was quite interesting. It reminds me a lot of the gnostic gospels, you know, all that Book of Q and Gospel of Thomas stuff. Whether or not it’s factual, it rings true, it resonates, like Wallace Russell’s Musical Universe.

I realize that all this vaguely New Age stuff is not at all rational, but that doesn’t mean that you can’t be rigorous about following the trail it points to. Most interesting in all this is the convoluted interconnectedness of all these ideas and streams of thought. Gaianism, intuition, intuiting Nature’s web, Schauberger…it’s also interesting to note that the TruthSeeker website ericswan sent me to also had prominent links to both that best bee story and to right back here, to Jeff’s Many Dimensions Part I post, and the ongoing discussion of which it is now part.

I think that one problem we're having here is accepting, really wrapping our minds around the idea that more than one "truth" can be true without diminishing the import of any of the other, seemingly many truths. It's almost as if you have to use a many worlds, multiverse model to convey this idea in order to avoid the trap of relativism, which so many "interests" want to equate with meaninglessness.

A good case in point is this JFK stuff--you're right of course, Shrub, about Kennedy...but the stuff they're saying about the assassination(s) and subsequent cover-up(s) is also true. Simultaneously, even. Brainsplitting, eh?

Thanks, Brenda, ericswan, Tsoldrin, Shrub, Mark & The Good Dr. Bombay. And you, too, Jeff.

5/05/2007 01:48:00 PM  
Blogger Mark said...

Shrub on the Kennedies, I would agree since I inserted that big caveat in quoting that book--to attempt to tone down hero worship mode of the original book on the assassination in 1963 (which was 'true' on the dynamics around the assassination as a high cabal, though the book was basically motivated as RFK election campaign materials of 1968):

"Of course the only way JFK was elected was with vote fraud in Chicago arranged by his daddy Joe Kennedy who was very close to the late FDR (FDR appointed Wall street criminal Joe Kennedy as first head of the Security and Exchange Commission (SEC)]."

It's important to always keep in mind you can sample from the buffet of "content, author, and intent" separately even from the same text, which I was doing there.

Still, the more competitive the party framework, the more justice you will see, and less gatekeeping, as they compete down to serve you on your local levels (instead of expecting a single party to serve you).

I'd rather the Dems and Repubs compete to do each other in, because that makes the voter's vote more valued--than what they are doing now: which is collude to support a police state, support unauditable elections (despite massive state level legislature opposition, the federal level of these two parties support unauditable elections), bipartisan 9-11 cover up, their common federal support for the same William Blum described imperialist corporate globalist empire (which is going to only bring more immiseration and instability engineered by their state economic policies that come in tow).

The trap is the belief that you have to support one or the other, Punch or Judy, when its the game's proscenium arch that keeps other players from approaching the stage that should be the concern. Particularly given these polls, or particularly when like another poster above noted the increasing commonality of concerns about human rights and U.S. Bill of Rights issues from socialists linking up to libertarians alike (or for instance supporting Russo's 'third party full spectrum tidal wave' candidacy to get around the two party gatekeeping in his attempt at the Nevada Governorship. And, yes, as IC kindly linked, I've attempted to carve out a different sort of space institutionally, as well as toward ecologizing what a bill of rights might look like as well.

Though they're after world consolidation, by hook or by crook (or should that be hook and crook) with any Chosen one available, Korean-American* or otherwise.

[*how Korean area they when they're a placeless State Department family where his parents supposedly worked in Saudi Arabia for ten years, in a capacity I'm not sure about?]

That's the solid reality going on behind Cho or the 'party competition' distractions of the Punch and Judy show '08. When over 50% of the U.S. federal budget goes only to the military, both gatekeeping parties attempt to 'compete' against each other by only outsupporting each other for being at the top of that I.G. Farben-like corporate monopoly warmaking arrangement.


More real news that has not been getting much airplay I imagine 'inside the tube' is the real world of the Mexican general strike to the south (first general strike there since 1916 [that link I recomment only for content, instead of the heavy rhetoric--so much is coming to a head there politically and economically particularly after the stolen Presidential election there to seat the Bush-linked neocon appointee):

"Calderón, beyond establishing a particularly weak government, was forced to take power in the middle of the most convulsive events in many years and at a moment when the economy experienced six years of stagnation. We must add to this the fall of international oil prices and a lower rhythm of the US economy, to which approximately 85% of Mexican exports are destined."

There were many May Day
events worldwide, many of them quite violent. Which way will the tipping point go? Corporate fascist full speed ahead, or something different?

And IC, I smiled. I think I synchronistically linked to Saul before here, I forget where. And thanks for the updated bee article.

5/05/2007 02:56:00 PM  
Blogger hoi polloi said...

It was a sacrificial rite of spring as well. Using blood of young lambs natch, among other things...

5/05/2007 06:05:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

How can there be any room left for Royalty these days if you adhere to the orthodox perception of History? Of course, those of us who investigate what's outside the box, or cave, realize that it's a continuation of the same, and the recognition of the Queen, or English Royalty, is to pay homage to that fact, but the Majority don't view it that way, yet they acquiesce to Royalty's continued existence.

I do believe there is something more to the Queen visiting Virginia and ackowledging the victims of the latest Massacre. I believe it's a rub in the face, if you will, of those who see the event as something more than the MSM portrays. It "feels" Occultist....doesn't it?

5/05/2007 07:51:00 PM  
Blogger ericswan said...

The occult part of Jamestown, Virginia is in it's longditude which was part of the John Dee calendric and occultic control of America. 77 degrees w. Long is the same long. for Washington, and at least two pyramids in S. America. The timing for the Queen's visit is also interesting in that it was exactly 50 years since her last visit and May 5 is the astronomical Beltane cross-quarter day.

John Dee was obsessed with the 77 degree longditude west. I would be interested in some input here. The Queen leaves 0 degrees long or "the city of the sun" vis a vis Grenwich Mean Time to visit shortly after the blood letting of 33 victims.

"After lunch, at the College of William and Mary, the queen was welcomed at a gathering in the courtyard of the Sir Christopher Wren Building. Built between 1695 and 1699, it is the oldest college building in the United States, school officials said.

While the queen ate in Williamsburg, her husband was in Norfolk, where he met with the families of 14 service members deployed to Iraq and Afghanistan. He asked each of them how their loved ones were doing and when they would be coming home.

The royal couple later left for Kentucky, where the queen will attend Saturday's Kentucky Derby. Her plane landed in Lexington shortly before 6 p.m. Next week she visits President Bush in Washington.

5/05/2007 09:44:00 PM  
Blogger ericswan said...

Mark.. the video is mostly "lifted" from Tom Bearden's book "America At the Brink".

To all the other posters' I am impressed with the quality of the posts and the different points of view that each bring to the table. If you come here with an open mind you should leave here with a fullness of knowing that you have done your best.

5/05/2007 09:52:00 PM  
Blogger brenda said...

iridescent cuttlefish said...
Tsoldrin was shocked in the last thread that we were bashing science, so I told him that it wasn’t the idea of science that I was attacking, but rather the way that the business of science was conducted.

Yeah, This is a point of agreement. I don't trust corporate science much. I don't like the insestous relationship between say... the FDA and big pharma. And take a look at this months front page of Harpers Magazine for a good example.

We talk about it all the time here—the question of how we know what we think we know, which is not just a low-brow approximation of epistemology. The question lurks in the title Jeff chose for this blog,

Yes, I agree that the central question is "How do you know that?" And I really wish that more people asked themselves that question. But I don't have an answer for "how do we know?" other than "by way of the scientific method of hypothysis-experiment-repeat". I am open to other ideas. Like that aboriginal shamen seem to have a knowledge of plant biology they could only have aquired through a modern lab, which they don't have. Maybe McKenna was right... but I don't feel like I can say that right now. I feel the need for better evidence.

Damn it, I want walking talking proof. I want to put my hands on the genuine article (alien, or whatever). I want to see, feel and smell the machine elves or whomever we are talking about.

Is that so much to ask?


And secondly I feel a need to be a counter weight. It was a role I played in my family of origin so I guess it is part of who I am. When someone says one thing, I am most likely to say "But... what about this other thing?"

5/06/2007 12:27:00 AM  
Blogger Mark said...

"After lunch, at the College of William and Mary, the queen was welcomed at a gathering in the courtyard of the Sir Christopher Wren Building. Built between 1695 and 1699, it is the oldest college building in the United States, school officials said."

After the royal English Restoration in 1661, there was the great fire of London in 1666.

Wren, besides being put in charge of rebuilding St. Paul's Cathedral (replete with Masonic black and white checkerboard floor), laid out the larger cityscape plan for the burned down area of London that stopped burning strangely right at the door to the old Templar area (the Temple) Wren's plan was arguably, on a sephirot/sephiroth "Christian Cabala" diagram that was ready in record time and detail as if already planned out before the fire. (There was even a second Cabala design submitted even sooner by someone else).

Christopher Wren, after all this architectural work with incredibly occult double meanings all over London, went on to be Grandmaster of English Masonry for several years when it was still a "secret society" instead of as they claim after 1715 merely a "society with secrets".

For those who want to know more about European cityscapes and the Egyptian/Jewish Renaissance occult, a good introduction would be Talisman: Sacred Cities, Secret Faith by Graham Hancock and Robert Bauval (Paperback - Oct 25, 2005) [keeping in mind though I like to separate "content, author, and intent" pretty much].

If you like the queasy feeling of political vertigo the "Cho incident" recently gives you, read on.

A whole aspect of Christianity among some quarters went in for Christian Cabala then--and possibly now.

This article is about the Sephiroth as used in Jewish mysticism. For other uses, see Sephiroth (disambiguation).

Tree of life is a mystical concept within the Kabbalah of Judaism which is used to understand the nature of God and the manner in which He created the world ex nihilo (out of nothing). The Kabbalists developed this concept into a full model of reality, using the tree to depict a "map" of Creation. The tree of life has been called the "cosmology" of the Kabbalah.

[And in placing it in a city plan, hearkened to the Egyptian methods of city planning mysticism for archaeoastronomical "blessings". It was just operationalized with Jewish mysticism 1500 years later-- though with the craze of the relatively recently translated Egyptian doctrines of thought contributing to the idea: as above, as below.]

Some believe the tree of life of Kabbalah corresponds to the Tree of Life mentioned in Genesis 2:9.

This mystical concept was later adopted by some Christians, Hermeticists, and even pagans.

Sephirot (or "enumerations", Sephiroth, Sefiroth (סְפִירוֹת), singular: Sephirah, also Sefirah (סְפִירָה "enumeration" in Hebrew)), in the Kabbalah of Judaism, are the ten attributes that God (who is referred to as אור אין סוף Aur Ain Soph, "Limitless Light, Light Without End") created through which he can manifest not only the physical but the metaphysical universe.

[The late great Dame Frances Yates would call it "astral magic" as opposed to astrology, because it involved activities that one could do to change destiny through magical means to "bring down" and call forth certain correspondences to inhabit the human world for talismanic significance, instead of simply reading off astrological signs and accepting them with fatalism. Though if you read Ahmed Osman's books, the Jewish, Christian, and Egyptian aren't so far apart as he argues only drifted apart...Match this with the Talisman book claims, and you may see that some knew that when they were rebuilding the Vatican in the 1500s.Back to the quote:]

Through a careful study of the Tanakh, Jewish sages identified ten Sephirot (ten being the number of divine perfection) known by the following names/characteristics from highest to lowest.

The Da'at is the mystical state of unity of the 10 Sephiroth, also called the Tree of Life. These ten levels are associated with Kabbalah's (Zohar) four different "worlds" or "planes" which serve as the guide for returning to the Creator.


Each of these worlds are progressively grosser and further removed from the Divine (Plan), however the ten Sephiroth manifest in all of them.

Whereas in the Zohar and elsewhere there are four worlds or universes (planes of existence), in the Lurianic system, Five Worlds, a fifth plane, Adam Kadmon-manifest Godhead level, mediates between the Ein Sof and the four lower worlds which can be understood as descriptive of dimensional levels of intentionality related to the man's natural "desire to receive" and a (secret Science of Kabbalah) method for the soul's progress upward toward unity with or return to the Creator.


The French hermetic occultist author Eliphas Levi wrote extensively and popularized the relationship between the Tarot and the Tree of Life. According to Levi, the tarot cards originated from Gypsies who brought the tree of life out of Egypt in the form of tarot cards. This was also agreed with by the French occultist Papus [of the Martinist occult Christian masonic sect that was so popular among many European royal families, particularly the Russian], which prompted the authoring of the book "Tarot of the Bohemians".

This theory lacks credibility now since it is known that Gypsies actually came from India, not Egypt. [Though read Tony Bushby's The Secret in the Bible for his view of Egyptian basis of Tarot.]

The earliest known appearances of tarot cards came from the [Sforza] Dukes of Milan, not Gypsies, namely under the rule of Filippo Maria Visconti and Francesco I Sforza. According to Levi and others, the 22 paths of the tree of life are directly related to the 22 trump cards of the tarot deck. The Four Suits are related to the four elements. The Ten numbers are related to the 10 sephiroths. It should also be noted that the earliest tarot decks never had any dogma towards how many cards or how many suits it had, making this theory less credible.

The Sephirothic Tree is sometimes depicted as being a human body and, as such, is thought to symbolize the first "Heavenly" Man: Adam Kadmon who is identified by Manly Hall as the Idea of the Universe. Each of the Sephirah, as seen within the formation of the Sephiroth, correspond with a body part or organ of this prototypical man.


In a numerological sense, the Tree of Sephiroth also has significance. Between the 10 Sephiroth run 22 channels or paths which connect them, a number which can be associated with the 22 letters of the Hebrew alphabet. [Though read Tony Bushby's The Secret in the Bible for his view of Egyptian/Hebraic letter shape basis of these correspondences for an interesting theory (which were placed in the Tarot drawings themselves).] In addition to each of these channels being assigned a letter of this alphabet, each path is also identified with one of the major trumps of the Tarot deck of symbolic cards. When combined with the 10 Sephiroth, these 22 paths make the number 32 which makes reference to the 32 Qabbalistic Paths of Wisdom and also the 32 degrees of Freemasonry.

To envision the tree, consider each of these ten spheres as being concentric circles with Malkuth being the innermost and all others encompassed by the latter. None of these are separate from the other, and all simply help to form a more complete view of the perfected whole. To speak simply, Malkuth is the Kingdom which is the physical world upon which we live and exist, while Kether, also call Kaether and Kaether Elyon is the Crown of this universe, representing the highest attainable understanding of God that men can understand.

London seems to be laid out in this fashion--with not just one, though two different Cabala plans submitted after the London fire of 1666.

This was additionally the year of the pan-European Jewish heresy that led to the Sabbateans that rapidly went occult and undergrond--an interesting movement that is still with us.

5/06/2007 08:49:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Brenda to want to see and feel proof of something is the best. To have that kind of security is not knocked by me. Scientific reasoning is not something that I shun. I accept that Science is just as unreliable as Religion because of the corruption within. Like forensic science did not save the day with the Kennedy assassinations. It was not part of the official solution to the breaking of both cases unfortunately. What a major letdown this is.

I'd like to share something that Religion usually does not mouthpiece. It is assumed that when we recieve proof of something phenomenal we will be amazed with awe and accept it. Like if a 1,500 square mile light shown down on earth 24/7 and a voice told us that this was the creator God everybody would be finally content with the fact on planet earth. Let's say that it was God and all of us knew this. Not everybody would care. The minority who really did not care less would give other people a hard time about this. So what. I know. Who cares. This clearly would be a problem.

So it is most respectable that individuals who rely on Atheism or Agnosticism for answers would indeed accept proof of a Creator with purest bliss. Especially if we could see and feel the proof. The problem is the ones who really don't care at all when we can see and feel it. What do you think?
Because it is this kind of trouble that could lead to a war.

I admire your dissidence. Dissidence usually does not frustrate me. Many Christians believe that when Our Christ returns people will be at peace with this by default. According to the Book, that we rely on for answers about this possibility, it is not so. This after the dust settles and He has established Himself as the true God. Albeit it may not be true.

Even so the writtings give us the peace and contentmentness alive. Our purpose is found. This with the understanding that God may not exist and it is dust to dust. Dust never regretting anything.

5/06/2007 12:22:00 PM  
Blogger surrender said...

Isn't it possible that we can be Spiritual Beings intricately connected to a Source of Energy and Consciousness that cannot be measured or proven in this third dimensional world??

IC, you seem to always find words or links that remind us that "proof" can sometimes be experiencial. And religion is not synonomous with God.

My daughter, when she was 9 years old, related to me about her life "before". Her name was Eva and she lived in Okalahoma and was crippled in a wheelchair at ten years old. Before she took her own life by drowning, she said that the Pleidians offered her to come with them or return to be with others who were more like herself. She chose to return.

At that time she had never been exposed to conversations or films about extraterrestials or reincarnation. But during her young years she always talked about the "small boys" who were always with her to protect and guide her.

She is now 28 years old and we have never spoken about this revelation since.........

So my question is.......Is this an experience that would scientifically prove that we reincarnate and that some of us do have relationships with "aliens"????

I believe that knowledge does not only exist outside of us, and we each carry an inherent knowledge of Who We Are and the Absolute Truth of our existence.

5/06/2007 03:11:00 PM  
Blogger iridescent cuttlefish said...

Very kind words, surrender. Despite those leanings of my which you mention, I'm currently pursuing (among a great many other scattered undertakings) a much more concrete, even technical search: the physics behind the implosion engine. I've even been able to track down allegedly working models--at this point, despite a certain amount of misinformation and the usual sorts of skullduggery, it appears that old Schauberger was right after all. Biomimickry is the way forward, with some bizarre detours into the past (but who ever said that time was linear anyway?)

Given your comment here, I thought you might like the following:

The Intuition Network, A "Thinking Allowed" Television Underwriter, presents the following transcript from the series Thinking Allowed, Conversations On the Leading Edge of Knowledge and Discovery, with Dr. Jeffrey Mishlove.


JEFFREY MISHLOVE, Ph.D.: Hello and welcome. Our topic today is "Science and Spiritual Traditions," and my guest, Dr. Charles Tart, is a professor of psychology at the University of California at Davis, a past president of the Parapsychological Association, and author of numerous books including Altered States of Consciousness, States of Consciousness, Waking Up, Transpersonal Psychologies, and many others. Welcome, Charlie.

CHARLES TART, Ph.D.: Thank you, Jeffrey.

MISHLOVE: It's a pleasure to have you here. You know, more and more scientists, it would seem, are taking interest in the realm of spiritual phenomena. In fact, I think especially here on the West Coast, but throughout the United States, I suppose because of mass media and jet airplane travel, we are being exposed more and more to the spiritual traditions of the Orient, and it almost seems incumbent on any thinking American to begin to evaluate Buddhism, Hinduism, the Sufi tradition. But do we have the tools to really analyze, to really make sense of these Oriental traditions?

TART: It's a good question, because we traditionally think of the conflict between science and religion. People popularly think of science as something that showed that religion's claims were all false and not to be taken seriously. Yet as you say, there are a lot of scientists who are getting seriously interested in religion, especially the Eastern spiritual disciplines. So it's interesting to think about: Do these areas of science and religion have to conflict? Can they help each other? Could science make religion more efficient -- a terribly Western view, of course? Or could the spiritual traditions somehow add more vitality to science, or make it more effective? Those are really important questions to me. I think we can have interesting discussions about those.

MISHLOVE: But where does one begin? I mean, if I'm thinking, for example, "Gee, I'd like to meditate; I'd like to become acquainted with this area," yet there are so many stories we hear in the newspapers about cults, and about people being taken in. It seems to me that as a whole our culture is very confused about what's happening here.

TART: Well, I don't think that's the major obstacle. Of course there are cults and there are people who do nasty things in the name of the spiritual. But there are people who do that in politics, in economics, in every other walk of life, and I don't know that it's actually more prevalent in the spiritual field. We're perhaps insulted more when someone who claims to be spiritual turns out to be a con man. That's not our primary problem. I think our primary problem is that we've all had some degree of scientific education. I mean, whether you think of yourself as a scientist or not, we all had to take science courses, we get it in the newpapers, magazines, television all the time. We get a world view that seems to have left the essence of religion out. So if you really buy that scientific world view, and we all do to some extent --

MISHLOVE: Godless capitalism.

TART: Godless capitalism, or godless Marxism, whatever. But if you buy that world view, that reality is nothing but what's physical, it's only the atoms and the energies that are real, then what could spirituality be? Certainly the aspects of it concerned with God or gods or something like that make no sense at all from that scientific world view, and the most you can come up with is some sort of pseudo-liberal attitude that well, meditation calms people's minds in a culture that has a lot of stress, so even though the religious side of it is nonsense, maybe it's good for your mental health. And someday we'll be able to give people a pill that will do the job better.

MISHLOVE: And we should be tolerant of other people's religions.

TART: Right. Now that doesn't set you up to approach the spiritual very well. And even people I know who are serious students of very spiritual paths still go through periods of conflict, where the part of them that's been educated in science says, "What are you doing? This is nonsense. You're hypnotizing yourself into a state of blankness, giving yourself delusions and visions that are all nonsense." So it's a problem; we have to reconcile these. Now, when we talk about a lot of scientists, especially on the West Coast, being interested, I don't think that in many cases that's because their expertise at science has led them to look at the spiritual life. Rather I think that it's in spite of their expertise in science, the gaps in their life, the emptiness that comes from not having any kind of spiritual foundation to your life, have forced them to begin looking at something.

MISHLOVE: There's some other part of their nature besides the scientific part that is motivated by these spiritual traditions.

TART: Yes, I think we're inherently spiritual creatures -- and I'll say that as a scientist and be able to put evidence behind that. But I say it as a psychologist, also as a human being. I think parts of us are inherently spiritual, and like any part of us, when you deny a part of your mind and nature, that's unhealthy. It begins to create symptoms, it begins to create funny sorts of behaviors, and we can't deny it. Now that doesn't mean that we should say, "OK, tell me anything that's spiritual, and I'll believe no matter what," because this is where I think science can be really helpful to us...

You might also be interested in Tart’s home page and the organization he created called TASTE.

I'm down with all the spiritual dimensions of this search, but it's also time to investigate the practical applications...although maybe that division is somewhat arbitrary as well, come to think of it.

There is physical, empirical proof of these things, Brenda--I'm working on it, with the help of some much smarter friends (of course!)

The larger point I was trying to make above with the "multiverse" metaphor was that just because there are such things as non-Euclidean geometry and non-Newtonian and non-Einsteinian physics, that doesn't mean that those accepted things don't work within their limits. The key to understanding "free energy" is that it's not ex nihilo--it just "comes from" sources we can't (or choose not to) "see" (or measure), for all sorts of reasons. Cliche that it is, remember:

"There are more things on Earth and under Heaven than are dreamt of in (y)our philosophy."

Was Shakespeare (or Bacon pretending to be the Bard) ever wrong about anything important? Personally, I'm always a little skeptical of both those who proclaim impossible things and those who presume to tell us what things are impossible.

Here's an example of a very common misperception in this area which turns out to have a perfectly "mundane" explanation.

For you thrill-seekers, here's some extreme biomimickry.


5/06/2007 05:48:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Mass killings by lone nutters are extremely radical and make the extremely radical political police state less radical and more mainstream.

Do people assess hypotheses evenhandedly?

People tend to seek out confirmatory evidence for what they suspect to be true, a tendency that has the effect of "seek and ye shall find." A biased search for confirmatory information frequently turns up more apparent support for a hypothesis than is justified.

This phenomenon has been demonstrated in numerous experiments explicitly designed to assess people's hypothesis-testing strategies (Skov and Sherman 1986; Snyder and Swann 1978). But it is so pervasive that it can also be seen in studies designed with an entirely different agenda in mind. The following information was given to participants in this study (Shafir 1993):

Imagine that you serve on a jury of an only-child sole-custody case following a relatively messy divorce. The facts of the case are complicated by ambiguous economic, social, and emotional considerations, and you decide to base your decision entirely on the following few observations. To which parent would you award sole custody of the child?

Parent A:
average income
average health
average working hours
reasonable rapport with the child
relatively stable social life

Parent B:
above-average income
minor health problems
lots of work-related travel
very close relationship with the child
extremely active social life

Faced with this version of the problem, the majority of respondents chose to award custody to Parent B, the "mixed bag" parent who offers several advantages (above-average income), but also some disadvantages (health problems), in comparison to Parent A. In another version of the problem, however, a different group is asked to which parent they would -deny- custody of the child. Here, too, a majority selects Parent B. Parent B, then, is paradoxically deemed both more and less worthy of caring for the child.

The result is paradoxical, that is, unless one takes into account people's tendencies to seek out confirming information. Asked which parent should be -awarded- the child, people look primarily for positive qualities that warrant being awarded the child -- looking less vigilantly for negative characteristics that would lead one to favor the other parent. When asked which parent should be -denied- custody, on the other hand, people look primarily for negative qualities that would disqualify a parent. A decision to award or deny, of course, should be based on a comparison of the positive -and- negative characteristics of the two parents, but the way the question is framed channels respondents down a narrower path in which they focus on information that would confirm the type of verdict they are asked to render.

The same logic often rears its head when people test certain suppositions or hypotheses. Rumors of some dark conspiracy, for example, can lead people to search disproportionately for evidence that supports the plot and neglect evidence that contradicts it.

taken from March/April 1997 Skeptical Inquirer. article by Thomas Gilovich.

5/06/2007 08:08:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Interesting. I chose to award the child to Parent A and to not award the child to Parent B.

Ahhh.....but who gets to test the Experimenters?

The test can just as easilt be used to explain why so many adhere to the Offcial Explanation of events.

This is exactly whu I assert that Truth is relative to our indoctrinated perceptions.

5/06/2007 08:32:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Yeah. The child goes to Parent A. You could say why should this decision be left to a jury. The child may also refuse to be with either one unless they kiss and make up. I find that the Truth is always unpopular. It doesn't have enough glitter to excite the mind. Yet when we do embrace it, things that are difficult in life become easier to bear. I feel that we got no where to go but to the Truth. And servants of Truth are humble, gentle, non argumentive, patient, willing teachers.

I think lies are better served with mischievousness, pride, self interest, greed, and hedonism. Maybe this is better interpreted as saying, "Because of these 6 things I finally got a date!" hahahaha

I agree with Jeff about how federal authority is withdrawing from civilian oversight and replaced by for-profit contractors. When I write political police state I always see this as international now. Not national anymore.

5/06/2007 09:16:00 PM  
Blogger just_another_dick said...

"But what is magic but a show? A grand distraction, a juggling act? Most “magical systems” are either sterile and ineffective or will quickly hand your sorry ass over to “higher” entities who will gladly use you as a pawn in their old and feeble games because you were too weak to plot your own destiny and tap your own innate “magic.”

And perhaps all of the freaky coincidences, the pressing late-night god contacts, the psychedelic grandeur, the arcane theories, the frantically-assigned meanings, the interstellar conspiracies, the greedily gathered flashes of insight and wisdom—perhaps, real as they can be, they’re simply more “stuff” at the end of the day, like the endlessly hypnotic lightshows and entity communications users of DMT or Salvia Divinorum report as appearing to distract one from the real shit. Put on enough of a show and that ten-minute trip’ll be over before you even notice that it’s the lightshow which is the true threshold, the true door of perception, let alone before you muster the bravery to get to the other side.
And so it is with life. Games within games and distractions within distractions. An Angel of Light, the light just out of reach at the end of a tunnel that somehow grows longer with each step.

So how do I feel about Lucifer? Not much, these days. He’s tedious and stale, and not particularly intelligent. He only knows a few tricks. He kind of pops up out of the corner of your eye waving a dead Iraqi kid on one hand and Paris Hilton on the other and hopes you notice. I just can’t take him seriously anymore. It’s just our own collective fear of being alive, taken form and gone out to stalk the night. A waste, really. “Nothing can trouble you but your own imagination,” Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj wrote in I Am That . Nisargadatta worked selling bidis in the slums of Mumbai. A lot of people also believe he was an Awakened Being. The bidi schtick certainly makes it seem plausible.

Nothing to be scared of. Just rolled-up clothes under the bed. No monsters. And all the abusive governments and lurking terrorists, the horror scenarios, the secret torture chambers, the death squads, the evil spirits, the Bad Men in Charge, the Men in Black tapping your phone? It was just us casting shadowpuppets on the wall all along."
Jason Louv

"Our senses process eleven million bits of information per second. Our conscious mind proceeds to edit out all but sixteen bits, which is all our focus can handle. Which means that we only perceive 0.000145% of the total reality available to our senses at any given second. This total reality of the senses is itself only a tiny fraction of existence— consider, for instance, that only 4% of the universe is composed of matter, the rest being what astrophysicists call “dark” (i.e. invisible) matter and “dark” energy. And you want to tell me we have even the slightest clue what’s going on, and that we’re alone in the universe?

We are socialized to choose the sixteen bits of the eleven million bits our senses process per second which, at any given time, fit what we call consensus reality (advice to any four-year-olds who may be reading this: Don’t let them make you forget! Don’t!). With everybody operating on this spectrum at the same time, we are able to have “civilization.” With everybody operating on different spectrums, there would be no possibility of cooperation and hence nobody would be able to eat or have a roof over their head. This does not mean that the rest of the spectrum is not just as “real” as that which supports the reality we are taught to see.

By oblique social pressure, cultures since pre-history have selected a small percentage of individuals as emissaries to the rest of the spectrum—shamans, artists, scientists. Our culture at present honors and supports scientists as long as they are making pharmaceuticals or weapons, artists as long as they are making art which is simple enough to be traded as a mass commodity and/or are dead, and shamans as long as they tell people what they want to hear or tell corporations how to function better. The rest it sneers at and refuses to support beyond begrudged tokenism. The world is saturated with systems for exploring the invisible landscape and the various strata of life which exist at frequencies other than our own. Every culture has at least one. Unsuccessful shamans go out in the invisible landscape and get lost. Successful shamans go out and then come back with the raw material that is then progressively honed into various forms of cultural advancement (example: Robert Johnson and the birth of rock ‘n’ roll). A shaman or magician is, first and foremost, an explorer of consciousness. Consciousness is a fluid, transpersonal continuum which, fully understood, is everything, existing and not existing. If, as superstring theory and ancient Hermetic doctrine alike suggest, everything is vibration, then perceiving vibratory levels beyond the usual should consist of changing the frequency we are receiving at. There are infinite vibratory levels existing in the same “space and time” as our own, which we can’t directly perceive just as we can’t directly perceive ultraviolet or infrared light without special instruments.

Many of these levels are inhabited. Many of them are inhabited by life-forms which can see us even if we can’t see them. Some are friendly. Others are not. Those who can figure out how to operate on levels beyond the ordinary, by blind luck or extended and precise observation and experimentation, can often make things happen which make no sense in terms of consensus reality, hence the brute catch-all term “magic,” which I actually rather like, since it sounds silly and nonsensical and foolish, and I like silly and nonsensical and foolish things, because they are often gates leading outside of normal (policed and shepherded) reality."
Jason Louv

5/06/2007 10:04:00 PM  
Blogger Dr. Bombay said...

Re Shrub: I agree with you that
the Kennedy's should not be made,
in the words of Teddy K., "Larger
in death than they were in life."
They knew what the rules - and the
stakes were - and played nothing
but hardball. But the sons, JFK
and RFK, seemed to question the
status quo that was in large part
created by men like their father
Joseph Kennedy as they matured.
JFK gave several speeches as
President that warned the public
of the growing threat to our civil
liberties from the muzzling of a
free press and the ever growing
secrecy of the Fed. Govt. He was
more than aware that the CIA had
become a power unto itself
and must be checked in order to
protect our civil liberties. This
no doubt made him dangerous to
certain groups of people in this
country - as he knew it would. But
he did it anyway.

Re Eric: I believe you mentioned
Chem-trails in your last post.
I've noticed a hugh drop off in
spraying since the news about the
bee die off was made public.
Where I live(New England) the
spraying has been constant until
the last week or so. We've actually
had several days in a row of clear
skies with no spraying at all.
Has someone been told to knock off
the fucking spraying until TPTB
figure out what up wit the bee's?

5/06/2007 11:44:00 PM  
Blogger ericswan said...

HMMM.. thanks for the observations dear doctor. There are two factors to consider when chemtrail activity falls off. They may be needed somewhere else (whatever that means??) or stories like the bees have raised a public alarm.

Obviously many levels are totally aware of chemtrails including the media, pilots, weathermen etc... which leads me to speculate that there is an inside track to TPTB which can "manipulate" the applicators "to be or not to be".

I know that it pisses me off when the sun is completely blotted out and I'm sure there are other human endeavours which need sunny days besides me in my organic garden.

I will say that in my geographic location in the central north west, chemtrails were being sprayed sporadically as the cloud cover has been extensive for the past couple of weeks. The fact is that my area is natural to a desert with all the pine trees dieing off at an alarming rate due to having their immune systems (production of gum) injured by HF (hydrogen flouride) and the majority of flora being sage, cacti, and hardy grasses. The die off of pines is an area the size of a dozen of the smallest states put together. It's a powder keg forest fire scenario that can only be viewed as nothing short of a cataclysm.

The dead and dieing trees will be the reason for the most devastating floods British Columbia has experienced in modern times and are set to go in two or three weeks.

The dead and dieing trees are being devastated by the pine beetle. The UN is showcasing this dieoff as a clear indication of global warming but the reality is that pine trees are doing fine everywhere else in the world except here in B.C. Interesting to note that Alcoa has put an offer of 33 billion on the table to buy Alcan and of course, the tie in here is that the dead forest the size of a couple of Canadian provinces or a dozen of the smallest states, is all downwind of Alcan.

Back to chemtrails and thank you very much to the aluminum powder and aluminum aerospace industry, and "hey look, more global warming manipulation", the F-5 tornadoes (51 since 1950) must mean global warming is a fact. Actually, if you check out the vid link I posted above, chemtrails and HAARP go hand in hand in weather manipulation and the huge benefactor is the aluminum industry. Forget that the air, water, earth and living systems are being coated with aluminum, we must support the M-I-C by spraying or the Russians will destroy America with Scalar weapons .

I know Brenda. You don't get it. Well, you didn't see fit to view the video so why do you think you should know what's going on when you won't take the time to find out.

The Russians have been manipulating the weather longer than the Americans. Scalar waves need metals like aluminum or barium for conduction. Conduction facilitates heating the ionosphere which can in turn heat and cool the earth's surface, move the jetstream around any which way they want and the escalation has no way to go but destroy the planet. For documentation on the effects of HF (smokestack effluent from the aluminum industry) see Jim Phelps ORNL and chemtrails or various other links "disappeared" on the internet.

To reiterate.. The entire B.C. forest is in a state of complete devastation. Runoff this spring will sink much of the Fraser Valley in a flood that will be unprecedented. Hot dry weather this summer will result in a forest fire scenario the likes of which the world has never seen. Alcoa will buy up Alcan and chemtrails are an absolute necessity to feed the monster that will result from the amalgamation of Alcoa and Alcan.

5/07/2007 08:00:00 AM  
Blogger Mark said...

Where do you bet "the next Chosen one" could be, given these demographics?

Even the well coached theocratic military pretensions of a neocon alliance with Mormons is breaking down in Utah:

"Even the Mormons...Mormons are no longer unanimously behind the war policy of their government....

In the past, the president of the US and his vice could rely on one thing. In large parts of the Mormon state of Utah, little was heard about opinion polls where a convinced majority of US citizens reject the war policy...and demand withdrawal from Iraq [or justice for a hundred other crimes]....The Mormon Orrin Hatch who has represented Utah for more than 30 years comes from here. Here the republicans won almost every election since Nixon. In 2004 Bush and Cheney gained 72 percent of the votes - more than any other state. This is the "friendliest territory" for Bush and Cheney, "Bush-land." Every appearance is a home game.

That was the thinking in the White House. Then just before Easter vice-president Cheney was to speak at the end of April in Provo (86 percent Bush voters) near Salt Lake City at the annual commencement of the private Mormon Brigham Young University.

The White House had invited itself, the media reported.

In any case, the administration of the university that sought the president for last year's commencement extended the official invitation to Dick Cheney.

Now the Mormons are no longer unanimously behind the war policy of their government in view of more than 3200 dead US soldiers and over 24,000 wounded.

Referring to Cheney's role as "war-mongerer," students with their professors after the announcement of Cheney's appearance gathered in a protest action with signs "Cheney kills our soldiers" and "Cheney is the teacher of our worst president ever."

A sign with a picture of Cheney and the president of the Mormon Church Gordon B. Hinckley was confiscated by the university's security force.

Within two weeks, 3600 current and former students and teachers signed a resolution demanding the retraction of the Vice-president's invitation. While this is a minority of the 30,000 students, a US newspaper said the turning away of Mormons from President Bush was like the refusal of the Swiss Guard to show allegiance to the pope.... [rest at link]"

The article fails to mention it, though there is certainly a 9-11 demographic behind this starting division among Mormons at BYU. Brigham Young University is where Dr. Stephen Jones 'has a job' or had one, currently I think still suspended from teaching for challenging the Bush administration's lies about WTC7, as Jones is the main physics researcher and finder of thermate detonation chemicals in the rubble of WTC1/2 and WTC7 which virtually proves inside job on WTC7's detonation, and begins to unravel the whole Bush administration lie about the day of 9-11 as nothing more than a huge Reichstag Fire.


BYU conducts POLITICAL PURGE: places 9/11 truth professor Dr. Stephen Jones on paid leave:

"On February 1, 2006, BYU Professor Steven E. Jones first gave a public lecture on the various anomalies of 9/11. Jones is one of the two main co-founders of Scholars for 9-11 Truth. Later, he announced that he had discovered thermate samples from both WTC7 steel as well as WTC1/2 steel, which could only have been created through planted 'steelcutter' charges of the chemical to create a controlled demolition. Silverstein admits he conducted a controlled demolition on WTC7, so it indicates that in his other WTC1/2 buildings were equally connected to him. Some claim that Homeland Security attempted to bribe Jones with a grant if he would stop talking about thermate... --- Now, by September 2006, BYU after earlier attempts to stop and change the direction of Dr. Jones research from aluminothemates, slapped him down this week in what can only be called a political purge....

Thankfully, Bush can always depend on the Democrats for support though. That's why pro-Bush Nancy Pelosi is there (see link).

5/07/2007 08:48:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

CNN asked Nikki Giovanni, the celebrated poet and professor who taught Cho and at least one of his victims, about the shooter. She spoke of how he surreptitiously took pictures of classmates, how he turned in bizarre and threatening work, and ultimately so unnerved other students that they stopped coming to class and she, in turn, refused to teach him.

"I know we're talking about a troubled youngster and crap like that," she said, "but troubled youngsters get drunk and jump off buildings; troubled youngsters drink and drive. I've taught troubled youngsters. I've taught crazy people. It was the meanness that bothered me. It was a really mean streak."

Which echoes a lyric from "Nebraska," Bruce Springsteen's song about a 1950s killing spree. Springsteen, singing in the voice of murderer Charles Starkweather, says:
"They wanted to know why I did what I did. "Well, sir, I guess there's just a meanness in this world."

You hear few people putting it that way, which isn't surprising. After you've established that there is meanness in the world, where do you go from there? Blame the police or mental health care, and the implication is that here is something we can get our hands around, something we can fix. But how can you fix meanness? How can you fix a deadness of the soul?

Some days, you look for answers. Some days, you seek things you can fix. But some days, I think, you just have to swallow the bitter pill that there is meanness in this world.
That will never pass for wisdom. But it feels an awful lot like truth.

excerpt of an article by Leonard Pitts Jr. columnist for the Miami Herald.

Three things in human life are important: The first is to be kind. The second is to be kind. The third is to be kind.

Henry James, author

5/07/2007 02:20:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

How is what Nikki just described as Cho's behavior, "mean?" I could see her labeling it as odd, peculiar and spooky....but "mean?" Snapping photos of his classmates is "mean?"

That's a rather bizarre label for that behavior. I consider bullies "mean." Why don't students stop going to class when bullies conduct their bullying?

Also, Belliasto, are you making the assertion that the meanness in the world is envronmentally propagated, or, is it genetically hard-wired in a certain percentage of us? If it's genetically hard-wired, no amount of being kind is going to mitigate the meanness. Please don't construe this as me condoning not being kind, but rather, being kind is not necessarily a prescription to preventing fact, there are countless examples where it actually encourages meanness.

5/07/2007 02:53:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Well if being mean is kind? I guess living in the Bronx in New York being somewhat mean has a calming effect. When a person from the Bronx relocates to say Tennessee that can be a problem because the naturally abusive New Yorker may be too abrasive for the Southerner who demands apologies from him when he acts abusively. The New Yorker could explain that,"Being mean is kind from where I come from!"

"There may be such a thang as genetically mean. But Dag Nab it apologize to me!",the Southerner could answer back.

A person born excessively mean is mysterious to me. I reason a small infant biting his mother often would qualify as being born this way. Yes the kid would need to be disciplined in the extreme. That would be being mean to be kind for the kid's sake.

Damien we have hired a new nanny. Do you approve of her? Taken from the movie The Omen. He was the exception. I don't believe there are that many kids like that. A child like that would have to be kept away from the boys in school. The boys would make mincemeat out of him. He would stick out too much.

Yeah the professor testified that Cho ultimately unnerved some of the students in her class enough that they left. It sounds like bullying to me. ??? What do you think?

Being kind to others is a remedy to being unkind to others. Being unkind can lead to a divorce or a breakup. So the meaning of being kind to others can be applied as genuinely behaving as you would want to be treated yourself. If a person is uneducated you would behave as uneducated. If learned, learned. Wild, wild. Passive, passive, etc... I guess that going out of your way to be kind to someone would help him survive better.

Shrub, you don't mind if I call you Shrub?, men will be men. If we pick on each other it usually is in fun. If it isn't we should probably treat the other person the way we would want to be treated. That's how I see it. I put myself in his shoes and take it from there.

5/07/2007 04:56:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

We have to be willing to accept that Cattle Mutilations are sometimes just what they seem to be.....Cattle Mutilations. HaHa...Me Make Big Funny...HaHa.

So let me get this right. There are no nefarious forces at work when it comes to CD, or the Moon Landing, but they do exist when it comes to Cattle Mutilations, Occultic Ritual Abuse and UFOs.

Right....Okay....I get it....sure thing.

5/07/2007 07:34:00 PM  
Blogger ericswan said...

IC.. Is this the crystal structure you were looking for?

5/07/2007 08:41:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Shrub, you don't mind if I call you Shrub?

Not at all. In case you didn't know, Shrub is Irish for The Whisperer.....just ask Mojo.

5/07/2007 09:09:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

You're lucky. My name means I am an ass.

5/07/2007 10:39:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

When I was younger my uncle the tribal chief was falsely accused by me of molestation. Instead of punishing me for being mean the family decided to rename me. The name has stuck ever since.

5/07/2007 10:47:00 PM  
Blogger Sounder said...

Richard, I checked out the ultraculture site, because i must admit, i liked some of what was posted. My impression is that Jason Leov is the kind of person willing to throw himself into a blender just to see what is going to come out.

One way to achieve some realizations, I suppose. It makes me appreciate Jeff and the more skeptical crowd that haunts this blogsite.

While the following contains truth, it makes no sense that these folk still follow a 'magical' path.

"But what is magic but a show? A grand distraction, a juggling act? Most “magical systems” are either sterile and ineffective or will quickly hand your sorry ass over to “higher” entities who will gladly use you as a pawn in their old and feeble games because you were too weak to plot your own destiny and tap your own innate “magic.”

For what it's worth, my ontological pretences try to describe a system whereby we can learn to stop being made into pawns. The games may be old, but they are not feeble, as most people are still held firmly within it's grasp.

5/08/2007 07:26:00 AM  
Blogger ericswan said...

IC..more of that cold fusion free energy from zero point that may be useful..

5/08/2007 11:37:00 AM  
Blogger just_another_dick said...

Sounder, couldn't agree more. While I did like bits of what Mr. Louv wrote, I found some of it to be somewhat naive, not to mention contradictory. It's alright to say things like this :
"Nothing to be scared of. Just rolled-up clothes under the bed. No monsters. And all the abusive governments and lurking terrorists, the horror scenarios, the secret torture chambers, the death squads, the evil spirits, the Bad Men in Charge, the Men in Black tapping your phone? It was just us casting shadowpuppets on the wall all along."

when you're comfy behind your computer but I imagine it's a completely different story if you're at the end of the gun barrel or strapped to the waterboard.
To say we're both Victor Frankenstein & the monster isn't really saying much new, I suppose. The trick, as you say, is to transcend these "old & feeble" games where we always find ourselves pawns in a game we don't really need, or want, to play. I'm not sure Mr. Louv is offering anything that Robert Anton Wilson hasn't said 20 years ago.
Having said that though, I did find it an interesting read & I just assumed others here
would feel the same.

Also, if you're interested , here's a podcast interview with Mr. Louv.

5/08/2007 11:47:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Is it just me, or is something odd going on around here? My shackles are up....but I'm not sure why. I may not be able to see the ship on the horizon, but there's definitely an odd ripple in the water and peculiar smell in the air.

5/08/2007 01:45:00 PM  
Blogger iridescent cuttlefish said...


I answered your free energy stuff, including a few very good links I found yesterday on my own, but I gotta tell you that I'm just scratching my head over that crystal link--did you read that stuff? It sounds okay in the beginning, self sufficient communinites & all, but then it veers into the weird in a big way.

First off, that crystal growing tech isn't something the author knows anything about, he just says:

•Note: Crystals may be engineered with nanotechnology and microbiology to grow from sunlight so that they could be used to grow into huge crystal domes like the ones in the Logans Run movie or floating crystal Islands at sea used to enclose small cities.

Like in the movies? He then edges a little closer to the cliff with this one:

•Since the above communities are self-sustaining and use advanced health and cryogenics to sustain, enhance and extend life indefinatly(sic), the may use remote viewing into the future to plan ahead to design idealistic societies and social cycles that offer the best life possible for their citizens, and allow their citizens to engineer their own lives ahead time foresee them, and the forget and live them as shown in the movie Total Recall.

and then finally shows his true colors in this amazing foundation for his Scary New World:

These above pre-planned communities are crime free in the sense that every member of the community is guaranteed a safe and secure life in the communities free of crime, by making a contract with the community which hires security guards and agencies, police, and militia, to monitor all public places and may monitor every split second of every persons life in public and in private places if the community member desires so. The communities are engineered so that it is almost impossible and unnecessary to commit a crime in them. Since the communities are carded, gated and secure, all members in the community are accounted for at all times for their own security and safety by means of a community membership, I.D. card, and radio-tele- communications chip on the ID card, and no outsiders or nonmembers may enter the community which reduces a great deal of crime.

This is not just a failure of imagination--this is choosing from the menu that the controlling elite has so thoughtfully made up for us--it's either the wealth disparity/Soylent Green model or the gated prison Panopticon. I reject both. Those who say that utopia only leads to dystopia, brandishing photos of Jonestown & Soviet purges, are pushing a line of propaganda that ultimately means: Don't even bother trying to make the world a little better--it's just human nature--what can you do? This is complete and utter bullshit--the foundation of the elite's hold on the vast majority, the excuse behind noblesse oblige and trickle-down economics...don't worry your pretty little head about it; we know what's best for you.

Fuck that. Wangari Maathai didn't listen, and unlike MLK, Malcolm X and Ghandi, she's still alive and she's still making people's lives better. I just talked to a Somalian guy this morning who said that Maathai is the greatest hero Africa has ever known. When I told him about my little plan he was incredulous--"They will let you do this in this country?!" he asked. (When I said, "Well, we'll see," he said goodbye in a way that sounded unnervingly final. Good thing I'm no hero--that's for people who've been told they can't do things for themselves, anyway.)

Willowater and n'Kozi have a very different vision--the only people they exclude are those who want to cram some fascist ideology down the throats of those they "help" or those who'd like to insert some fookin' RFID in some poor guy's undefended orifices.

Once we can get past the wall of corporate propaganda and admit that New Orleans (and every single major American city) could use these types of projects, especially the energy, water & food autonomy in the SMADEV concept (and the fire & storm proof nature of all these habitats, not to mention the community-focused nature of the new villages), then we might again become an example to the world for something other than torture & greed.

I am still interested in directed crystallography, mind you...just not in that direction. For anyone interested in the alternative energy projects I sent ericswan, here's one, and here's another.

(Hey Shrub, was that some sort of Freudianism with "shackles" for hackles, or are you planning something, oh...maybe Spartacus-like? That one didn't turn out well in the end, if memory serves.)

5/08/2007 01:59:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Wow...good catch there, IC. It very well could have been Freudian. Either never responded to it, slip and all. Is it just me?

5/08/2007 02:06:00 PM  
Blogger just_another_dick said...

One more thing Sounder, you said, "The games may be old, but they are not feeble, as most people are still held firmly within it's grasp."

Rather than feeble game players, i imagine the "higher(?) entities" encountered are probably more along the lines described by Alan Moore.
He says that as you move up the Kabballistic tree, human morality quickly fades into the distance. The "entities" encountered are not driven or limited by anything remotely human.
Personally, I'm kind of attached to human morality.

Here's Moore's description of the "magickal state:"

"With the magical experience, what happens is that you suddenly get a whole mess of stuff in the in-tray that you don't have the first flicking clue how to classify.. This is not a woman with a perambulator, or a well-done steak. This is something that may be a rose, a century, the Platonic essence of the colour green, or all of these at once. This thing over here is a Sqmrlpstgyzlt: it eats a by-product of human jealousy and it shits previously undiscovered prime numbers. The only sane thing to do in the face of sensory' input like this is to go mad. The filing cabinet will not cope, its systems of taxonomy exhausted. It spills over in a big flood of disorganised data across the office floor.

By becoming a magician two or three months prior to the catalytic event, in effect I was ordering a bigger filing cabinet ahead of time. When the event happened, I had at least some rudimentary means to classify it within a system and make sense of it. 'I've heard it said that all of our human perceptions might be seen as our individual windows on the Universe. The magician is consciously attempting to alter his or her window's width or its angle, so as to get a different view of the landscape outside. The schizophrenic, on the, other hand, has had his or her window kicked in by some great big astral skinhead in eighteen-hole Doctor Martens boots. Both of them are experiencing the same flood of phenomena and probably many of the same perceptions. The magician, however. -has a means of processing this information. The magician has something to bail with. The schizophrenic can only sink beneath the flood. As Aleister Crowley once succinctly put it (and I'm not paraphrasing here). "The only difference between a schizophrenic and myself is that I'm not mad."

you can find more here:

5/08/2007 02:47:00 PM  
Blogger Emlon said...

Report in News Daily that Cho's Mother had tried to have "religious cure" performed at church.

5/08/2007 04:21:00 PM  
Blogger Mark said...

By the way, the neocons just took over France with ES&S vote machine fraud. France has been rioting for two straight days.

Nothing related to Cho, though who knows. :-)

Meanwhile, interesting film about to be released May 20 in Austin, TX--particularly for those interested in transdimensional implications of many 'alien' things perhaps, or attempting to get others to note implications of many multiple dimensions. The animation is exquisite in the upcoming 30 minute length and very expensive looking "Flatland: The Movie". Short released excerpts of it from youtube:

Flatland: Reflections (2 min)

Flatland: Trailer (1 min)

Flatland: The Movie (1:36)

"They know nothing of our world, until now..."

"Space does not consist only of line, it contains width!"

"You're freaking me out!"


"Where did you come from?"

"The third dimension."


"The third dimension exists." :-)

Edwin Abbott’s 19th Century classic to be adapted into a motion picture.
January 22, 2006

AUSTIN, Texas— Flat World Productions announced the kick-off of “FLATLAND: The Movie” on January 22nd, 2006.

“FLATLAND: The Movie” is based on Edwin A. Abbott’s classic novel Flatland: A Romance of Many Dimensions. Flatland is a world that exists entirely on a twodimensional plane. All different kinds of shapes live, work and play in this world. This is the story of how Arthur Square and his six-sided granddaughter Hex travel to a world that most Flatlanders consider ridiculous and blasphemous -- the 3rd dimension. Flatland will be a thirty minute animated story that includes action, drama, and geometry lessons. This heartfelt movie challenges audiences to grasp the limitations of our own assumptions about reality, and to think about the problem of higher dimensions. The project is the brain-child of the creative triumvirate of Jeffrey Travis, Dano Johnson, and Seth Caplan. The three have been long time fans of the novel and it’s a dream come true for them to finally adapt it into a motion picture. “I’ve always admired FLATLAND because it motivates everyone who touches it to think about ideas and concepts that are literally out of this world.” declared director Jeffrey Travis. "I'm really looking forward to bringing the different worlds of Flatland to life.” Director of animation Dano Johnson remarked, “This is a great opportunity to create a world that the viewer can explore in their imagination long after they have watched the film." The project will be produced by Seth Caplan. Travis will direct and Johnson will serve as director of animation. The three have collaborated before on the FOX pilot “Except for Danny”. Production is scheduled to last six months and the project will deliver in the fall of 2006. The program will be part of an education DVD to be used by teachers in the classroom and may also appear on television. “Our goal is to create a movie that not only entertains, but also inspires” producer Seth Caplan said, “FLATLAND will help create the next generation of innovative mathematicians and scientists by demonstrating the wonders hidden throughout our universe.”

Contact: Ashley Smith

Little word when they will be making the sequel that is more germane to our discussions here "3D land: A quantum entangled view from the 5th dimension where time or space doesn't even exist" Toward that you might expect something like this. Think about "quantum entanglement seen from 3D" which would make sense of walking or being pulled through walls, prescience/future prediction, instantaneous appearances, psychic projection, etc.

Perhaps an overly rosy stereotypical view of potential transdimensional beings in the kindly Dr. Quantum guy...

Flatland: the limit of our consciousness... (4:30)

I can just see a less patrimonial Dr. Quantum jabbing his finger through the little circle, or simply picking her up and throwing her into space, and then throwing her down into someone else's house.

Quantum experience let see your Mind In Action (5 min)

5/08/2007 05:17:00 PM  
Blogger ericswan said...

With the world views shared above (or over my head), let me share my golden thumb rule. Compost everything you consider safe for consumption. Save seeds. There is no new thing under the sun. As above, so below.

Should you choose to expand the parameters of your experiential reality, be prepared for yet more gatekeepers, more frustration and more truth that needs to be sifted. Intuition rigor is intuition you can take home to Mom.

5/08/2007 06:38:00 PM  
Blogger iridescent cuttlefish said...


Sorry to have only remarked on that interesting slip—but I’m not sure how qualified I am to answer that question anyway. Around here, and other sorts of places I tend to visit, yeah, things always seem to be approaching some vague the-center-will-not-hold tipping point, and maybe moreso of late, but this feeling, this “trouble everyday” sensation is difficult for me to assess among the general populace. I don’t feed at the public troughs—the pay-toilets of the mainstream information conduit, so my only idea of the “mood of the country” is what I glean from talking to the mailman (a very sensible guy who used to believe the official story, right up until he found himself in a war in Vietnam that he’s still trying to get over) and friends & family. Very anecdotal.

I will say that people seem to be far more cynical than they used to be—I know a woman who expresses a lot of guilt “for having been stupid enough to vote for Bush,” but she’s not quite ready to make the plunge into completely abandoning the illusion, in this case by acknowledging that it doesn’t much matter which of the “parties” is in power.

It’s actually a little easier for me to see how this divergence between the sanctioned narrative and public opinion (or perception of that narrative) is playing out overseas. Mark talks about the mainstream coverage of the funny French election—crappy; what scandal?—and the polls at CNN show 3/4ths of the American herd being “satisfied” with the outcome (whatever that might mean), but the French themselves don’t appear to quite so happy about it once you get past that filter.

I’ve noticed this same sort of thing in Germany recently. Der Spiegel is really very mainstream and has been running all kinds of blatant pro-globalization propaganda for some time now, while pretending to be “liberal” and “honest,” but the veneer is getting very thin. Reporting on the French situation, Der Spiegel tells us that the social democrats have called for an immediate end to the violence. Francois Hollande, the head of the Socialist Party (PS), said Tuesday that the election result had to be accepted: "There may be disappointment, anger and frustration, but the only way to react, is by voting."

No speculation on what to do if the election was rigged, since there was no mention of that possibility anywhere in their reporting. Not surprisingly, I might add.

They’ve been serializing a popular book by this loyal corporate ass-clown named Gabor Steingart, a so-called “former leftist, in his student days,” who likes to talk about the glory of NATO in the defeat of the Evil Empire, even to the point of praising the fascist stay-behind groups (“the final bulwark against the communist menace”), but the truth behind these lies does get out, if in smaller venues, like Current Concerns which I’ve linked before in its exposure of the hypocrisy of the globalist elites (and in the case of Steingart’s lapdoggy-style “reporting” ) but Der Spiegel doesn’t really have that much competition. It would take a large watchdog group (to continue that unfortunate metaphor) to keep track of all their assaults on the truth.

Take their current crop of “scientifically sound, environmentally conscious” reports on climate change. Under a sunny photo of two smiling young Mädchen in beachware and a banner reading Not the End of the World as We Know It!, we find stories like:

* Biologist Josef Reichholf on Global Warming: 'We Are Children of the Tropics'
* Emotionalizing Climate Change: Is the IPCC Doing Harm to Science?
* Climate Change Predictions: A Tropical Germany by 2100?


* SPIEGEL Interview with Climatologist Hans Von Storch: "We Have to Take Away People's Fear of Climate Change"

But when I talk to my friends over there, they increasingly sound like us in this bunker. They’re not reaching for their swim suits but for solutions, like us, to problems that the keepers of the myth tell them aren’t really so bad after all.

So, yeah…I guess I agree. Things do seem to be even stranger of late, or, as one apocaplytic visionary used to say:

The lights are getting brighter
The radio is moaning
Calling to the dogs
There are still a few animals
Left out in the yard
But it's getting harder
To describe


What a comment! Between your omni-dimensional intimations and that Flatland trailer--Snarking frood! (as Zaphod would say) is all I can say. How did they bury Dr. Quantum in all that cheese? And poor Amit? Julian tells a similar tale...which I just had to echo 35 days later.

5/09/2007 01:56:00 AM  
Blogger Mark said...

Yes, on reflection, what I was getting at was that we are "three dimensional flatlanders", starting to see that 3D is echoing with larger dimensional effects or ripples all the while. We're merely caught up in sensory limitations (or at least, the popularized dogmatic views that we have these limitations of the senses--built around the dogma about the separation of dead material (and 'dead material only senses' dogmas of sight, sound, taste, touch, and smell) separated from thoughts drawn from the 1600s European ideas only, one of your favorite themes here, IC). Of course Sheldrake sort of debunks the limitations of 'dead material senses' being all there is, quite physically. Brenda should read that. Or find his website and read some of his rigorous scientific studies (particularly the international study of different countries children and how it measured other sensory apparatuses beyond the 'dead matter senses' above.)

The other implication is that the 'age old' attempt to categorize the normal vs. the paranormal may be simply the dogmatic surface effects of being 3D flatlanders--in a world that we already know operates by strange quantum entanglement unlimited by 3D spatial or temporal relations.

(Yes, IC, that film does seem to have Douglas Adams like humor, eh? And on reading other comments about that Flatland film, it seems the film is closer to 90 minutes really (unlike the mere 30 minutes they anticipated back in 2006).

And sharing another film for all the "Brenda's" out there (myself included), here's an interesting short 17 minute interview with Rupert Sheldrake from 1994.

Rupert Sheldrake BBC (17:07)

I think some of his sense that "DNA is only a chemical" is sort of strange, given some of our threads of the past here and particularly those Oak Ridge National Labs studies on attempting to utilize and measure the telekenetic quantum electrochemical effects on our "3d flatlanders DNA", by taking some out and then harming its owner in the next room, and measuring the DNA reaction in the other room. That the U.S. Government labs are really working on such things (or putting gold plated icons on DNA) should keep in mind there's a lot of occult(ed) stuff going on out there: what Shekdrake is talking about in his books is exactly what Oak Ridge National Labs was working on in that DNA research, for instance.

Covalent Attachment of Gold Nanoparticles to DNA Templates

Authors: Karen A. Stevenson1; G. Muralidharan1; Leon Maya2; Jack C. Wells3; Jacob Barhen4; Thomas Thundat1

Source: Journal of Nanoscience and Nanotechnology, Volume 2, Numbers 3-4, July 2002, pp. 397-404(8)

Publisher: American Scientific Publishers

Functionalized gold nanoparticles have been covalently bound to internal, modified sites on double-stranded DNA. Gold nanoparticles coated with mercaptosuccinic acid or thioctic acid were bound to amino-modified thymine bases on double-stranded DNA. Visible absorption spectra, gel electrophoresis, and atomic force microscopy were used to analyze the products. Thiol groups were added to one end of the gold/nanoparticle product, which was then attached to a gold surface. This method has the potential to allow controlled placement of particles with subnanometer precision and to allow attachment of the product to fixed contacts for nanodevice fabrication.


Document Type: Research article

DOI: 10.1166/jnn.2002.110

Affiliations: 1: Center for Engineering Science Advanced Research, Life Sciences Division, Oak Ridge National Laboratory, Oak Ridge, Tennessee 37831, USA 2: Chemical Sciences Division, Oak Ridge National Laboratory, Oak Ridge, Tennessee 37831, USA 3: Center for Engineering Science Advanced Research, Computer Science and Mathematics Division, Oak Ridge National Laboratory, Oak Ridge, Tennessee 37831, USA 4: Center for Engineering Science Advanced Research, Computer Science and Mathematics Division, Oak Ridge National Laboratory, Oak Ridge, Tennessee 37831, USA

The study abstract notes everything, except the WHY question or what is the point. It implies to me that someone knows that DNA is more than simply a chemical, and may be a "3D looking" portal arrangement or resonator with other equally real quantum dimensions, and it only looks like DNA because we're in 3D. :-)

5/09/2007 02:22:00 PM  
Blogger Mark said...

This is the full Shekdrake interview/documentary from BBC, 29 min

Sheldrake BBC (1994, 29 min)

What's surprising is that Sheldrake seems entirely unaware that morphogenic fields were already discovered around humans and particular organs and that form seems indeed to be a form of low (unaudible resonsance) effect of how matter heaps itself up in interference patterns. This is the work of Hans Jenny via Dr. Peter Manners cymatic machine forms of medicine.

To me it seems that Sheldrake's attempts to operationalize the morphogenic field issues was already done by the work of Dr. Manners via Hans Jenny. There were once some excellent videos on this on the web, though Google has deleted them.

here's a short clip that survives like a crumb. Looks like cell metabolism, eh? If this is 'large' lycopodium powder, think how much more sensitive to resonance forms in water or matter of much smaller microscopic chemicals in solution.

Here's another crumb left over.

5/09/2007 03:00:00 PM  
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