Thursday, May 24, 2007

Riddle Me This (Part One)

A question in your nerves is lit
Yet you know there is no answer fit - Bob Dylan

It may be that there are no stupid questions - though I wouldn't bet on it - but some questions are smarter than others.

Like the questions Peter Dale Scott asks. It's the quality of his decades-long inquiry into Washington's culture of conspiration - what he's called the "collusive mentality" of power and crime - that make his investigations so compelling. Because Scott knows the context and back-story to an event such as 9/11, he can see the threads of secret history rather than the apparent and disconnected anomalies of, say, Dylan Avery, and so he knows which questions need asking in order to deepen our comprehension of our time's covert narrative. And a smart question can accomplish this even when it remains unanswered.

For instance, Scott's presentation last February 25th before Arizona's 9/11 Accountability Conference, in which he examines the contradicting timelines for Dick Cheney's whereabouts between the second attack on the towers and the Pentagon strike. And of course, at the heart of this, though not standing alone, is former Transportation Secretary Norman Mineta's testimony of finding Cheney in charge at the Presidential Emergency Operations Center at 9:20, and Cheney's notorious "Of course the orders still stand!" exchange with an anxious young aid counting down Flight 77's distance from the Pentagon, who was evidently second guessing some astonishing command of the Vice President's.

Mineta's assumption that this was an order to shoot down a civilian aircraft doesn't accord with any of the accounts of when authorization for a shoot-down was given. That his testimony was an awkward fit is evident by its exclusion from the 9/11 Commission Report. That its dissemination was unwelcome is suggested by Mineta's abrupt and poorly-explained resignation the morning after Jim Fetzer aired it on Fox News.

Stupid questions aside, Fetzer has provided many stupid answers in the application of his curious conspiracy science. From moon hoax advocacy to a faked Zapruder film to beam weaponry at the twin towers, he couldn't be more injurious to a cause if he tried, so perhaps it doesn't matter whether or not he actually has been. But Fetzer that day raised an excellent question, one that tapped into the deep politics of the day and names names, but relevance was soon lost again in his bloviating noise of exotic weaponry and rococo hoaxes; subjects which lead not to justice, but only to hermetic and picayune circle jerks.

Truth's only agenda and advocacy should be itself, but we'll always bring our own agendas to it however benign and well-intentioned they may be. A true Truth Movement should care only about getting things right, but we also, and rightly, want to see indictments against high state criminals. Yet getting things right doesn't mean sexing-up the evidence in order to make a damning case more dramatic, which has been the fast and loose course of Dylan Avery.

This presents a serious problem, both for justice and for truth, as Nietzsche suggested in The Gay Science when he wrote that "the most perfidious way of harming a cause consists of defending it deliberately with faulty arguments." And it entails a bit of schizophrenia for 9/11 Truth, which presumes to play both prosecutor and judge; saying on the one hand that we're only asking questions, while on the other offering up a superfluity of contradictory and clumsy answers.

For the most part, I find the questions more penetrating than the alleged answers, some of which are to questions that don't even exist in their own right.


Blogger Uncle $cam said...

There are no stupid questions, but there are however, inquisitive idiots.

Got my popcorn ready!

5/24/2007 05:58:00 PM  
Blogger Heywood J. said...

I think these days, the questions I have revolve more around the motivations (or, more accurately, the de-motivations) of the onlookers. At some point, they have to start believing their lying eyes, and they have to insist that their elected leaders honor their elected charges and do what the self-governing populace is asked of them.

Don't they? Or does it require mass urban demonstrations, which then become the pretext for a genuine clampdown?

The truth movement, while admirable, is always going to be a step behind, because they only ask "what really happened", instead of "cui bono?" and "what happens next?".

5/24/2007 06:04:00 PM  
Blogger Vemrion said...

Jeff, you seem to be a connoisseur of deep politics -- a person whose taste in the paranormal runs to the "high art" side of the spectrum. But the average person wants the low-art version. They want their war justifications sexed up. They want their beer cold (and domestic) and their conspiracy theories bat-shit wild and wacky. Dylan Avery gives them what they want, don't begrudge him that.

That said, you're right. Truth, in the end, is what matters. Our task, our crucible, is how we make truth matter again.

5/24/2007 06:06:00 PM  
Blogger just_another_dick said...

"There is a race currently underway between different flanks of the administration to determine the future course of US-Iran policy.

On one flank are the diplomats, and on the other is Vice President Cheney's team and acolytes -- who populate quite a wide swath throughout the American national security bureaucracy.

The Pentagon and the intelligence establishment are providing support to add muscle and nuance to the diplomatic effort led by Condi Rice, her deputy John Negroponte, Under Secretary of State R. Nicholas Burns, and Legal Adviser John Bellinger. The support that Director of National Intelligence Mike McConnell, Secretary of Defense Robert Gates, and CIA Director Michael Hayden are providing Rice's efforts are a complete, 180 degree contrast to the dysfunction that characterized relations between these institutions before the recent reshuffle of top personnel.

However, the Department of Defense and national intelligence sector are also preparing for hot conflict. They believe that they need to in order to convince Iran's various power centers that the military option does exist.

But this is worrisome. The person in the Bush administration who most wants a hot conflict with Iran is Vice President Cheney. The person in Iran who most wants a conflict is Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. Iran's Revolutionary Guard Quds Force would be big winners in a conflict as well -- as the political support that both have inside Iran has been flagging.

Multiple sources have reported that a senior aide on Vice President Cheney's national security team has been meeting with policy hands of the American Enterprise Institute, one other think tank, and more than one national security consulting house and explicitly stating that Vice President Cheney does not support President Bush's tack towards Condoleezza Rice's diplomatic efforts and fears that the President is taking diplomacy with Iran too seriously.

This White House official has stated to several Washington insiders that Cheney is planning to deploy an "end run strategy" around the President if he and his team lose the policy argument.

The thinking on Cheney's team is to collude with Israel, nudging Israel at some key moment in the ongoing standoff between Iran's nuclear activities and international frustration over this to mount a small-scale conventional strike against Natanz using cruise missiles (i.e., not ballistic missiles).

This strategy would sidestep controversies over bomber aircraft and overflight rights over other Middle East nations and could be expected to trigger a sufficient Iranian counter-strike against US forces in the Gulf -- which just became significantly larger -- as to compel Bush to forgo the diplomatic track that the administration realists are advocating and engage in another war.

There are many other components of the complex game plan that this Cheney official has been kicking around Washington. The official has offered this commentary to senior staff at AEI and in lunch and dinner gatherings which were to be considered strictly off-the-record, but there can be little doubt that the official actually hopes that hawkish conservatives and neoconservatives share this information and then rally to this point of view. This official is beating the brush and doing what Joshua Muravchik has previously suggested -- which is to help establish the policy and political pathway to bombing Iran.

The zinger of this information is the admission by this Cheney aide that Cheney himself is frustrated with President Bush and believes, much like Richard Perle, that Bush is making a disastrous mistake by aligning himself with the policy course that Condoleezza Rice, Bob Gates, Michael Hayden and McConnell have sculpted.

According to this official, Cheney believes that Bush can not be counted on to make the "right decision" when it comes to dealing with Iran and thus Cheney believes that he must tie the President's hands.

On Tuesday evening, i spoke with a former top national intelligence official in this Bush administration who told me that what I was investigating and planned to report on regarding Cheney and the commentary of his aide was "potentially criminal insubordination" against the President. I don't believe that the White House would take official action against Cheney for this agenda-mongering around Washington -- but I do believe that the White House must either shut Cheney and his team down and give them all garden view offices so that they can spend their days staring out their windows with not much to do or expect some to begin to think that Bush has no control over his Vice President.

It is not that Cheney wants to bomb Iran and Bush doesn't, it is that Cheney is saying that Bush is making a mistake and thus needs to have the choices before him narrowed."

-- Steve Clemons

5/24/2007 06:46:00 PM  
Blogger Wolfowitz Mug said...

Jeff, Norman Mineta was actually Secretary of Commerce, then Secretary of Transportation. I couldn't find any reference to him being Treasury Secretary. I doubt Dylan Avery would make such a fundamental error in his research.

Oh, snap! Oh no I din't! But seriously, I only got snarky there in a friendly fashion. Keep up the excellent reporting. I know you don't have money to hire a fact checker, so of course we have to allow you the occasional gaffe. The big news agencies have piles of money to throw around, and they hardly get anything right.

5/24/2007 07:08:00 PM  
Blogger Jeff Wells said...

"Treasury Secretary" - Damn, I did mean to type Transportation Secretary, honest I did. Thanks, I'll fix.

5/24/2007 08:30:00 PM  
Blogger iridescent cuttlefish said...

The larger question, Jeff, is "Truth about what?" How far are we willing and/or able to go in that quixotic pursuit? Consider the recent flap over Ron Paul's unprecedented blasphemy at the Republican torture convention. Right in the middle of the Fox-scripted, Jack Bauer-themed braggert's game (the white politico's version of the dozens, where the twist goes, "I'm so patriotic and tyrannically inclined that I'm willing to castrate Middle Eastern men on suspicion of harboring a moustache), Congressman Paul uses the "B"-word to Rudy Guiliani, no less, the current frontrunner in the race for President of 9/11!

Cynical I may be...but "blowback" in that crowd, in that "debate"? That just had to be going off-script. Judging by the reaction, both among the stunned stool specimens onstage ("Blasphemy! I demand that you take that back, Sir!") and among the loyalists, many of whom are calling for Paul's resignation from congress (some of whom are requesting permission to lynch), demonstrates all too clearly the dimensions of the chasm separating us from the Truth.

Lest my tirade be construed as some sort of partisan ridicule of the right wing of The Party, let me quickly express my heartfelt desire to defecate equally on those smarmily complicit Demo-rats. I don't see any of them searching for 9/11 truth ot any other flavor that matters, either.

I mentioned here the other day that Mike Huckabee said, with a straight face and no slightest twinge or suggestion of irony that if the presidency is for sale to the highest bidder (in response to a question about his chances of winning the nomination, given that he lags so far behind the pack of rats in fundraising), then "democracy in America is in trouble...this is why we had a revolution all those years would be taxation without representation."

Now, when I heard this astounding Leave-It-To-Beaver-ism, after choking on my cold coffee mid-swallow, I assumed that the righteously cynical would be all over it............I have found no mention of it anywhere--Right, Left, breathing or undead. The vast majority of us are so laminated by The Illusion, the cheap, half-assed, B-movie version of reality, that we would find the revelation of the most basic, simple truth of the world as it is (a completely fraudulent game in which the few are sodomizing the many for fun & profit) unpalatable, preposterous, or maybe "a bit of an exaggeration."

Seriously, folks, you're killing me here. 9/11?! What more do we really need here? I mean, forget about the thermite and the where was the Veep when the unexpected catastrophe happened. We have the PNAC openly wishing for a new Pearl Harbor while unabashedly defining America's goal in the world as hegemony (doesn't rhyme with blowback, but it sure sounds, oh, vaguely undemocratic) and then we finally find out what maps Dick's friends were looking at during the secret energy task force party (it's here, about halfway down--the context is worth the wading)...what more do we need?

Actually, I was wrong. we're not so far from the truth. Everybody knows that power is an evil bitch, a malodorous perversion eating up the planet and her offspring; we're just going along with Rudy & the boys, smiling all the way to the edge, because we know in the marrow of our bones what a crock the whole stupid story we tell ourselves is. (There's a logic here, wait for it.) If we didn't go along with The Illusion, you see, then what possible excuse would we have for letting these pathetic assclowns kill everything good, beautiful, right & honest?

5/25/2007 12:29:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

5/25/2007 05:28:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"hermetic and picayune circle jerks"

Sounds like a fun club. Where do I pay my dues?

5/25/2007 05:31:00 AM  
Blogger lucky said...

We dont believe our eyes any more- holes in the pentagon, buildings collapsing, chemtrails ...... there needs to a shift in consciousness- and it will come so that the Truth is plain to see once again - this world is getting frightingly like the movie with the sun glasses!
btw thank fuck the religous mentalists have stopped posting

5/25/2007 08:55:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The truth movement, while admirable, is always going to be a step behind, because they only ask "what really happened", instead of "cui bono?" and "what happens next?".

The truth movement will always be a step (or ten steps, twenty steps, even, because they are always creating new realities) behind because they are focused on this one event, rather than the context. If they'd widen their focus and view this event in the context of the latter half of the twentieth century (Military Industrial Complex), or hell, for that matter, since the creation of the United States (Howard Zinn), or, oh shit, why not the beginning of Civilization (not the beginning of Man), they'd realize that this is just another event in a long string of events and not the world-changing, earth-shattering event they portend it to be, then there could be some sort of progress. But instead, what I see is an unhealthy focus on 911 and The Neocons at the ignorance of all else....and, IMHO, that can lead nowhere but a bigger, deeper hole.

I'm equally exasperated with people who have flocked to your board from Democratic Underground, Jeff. I know it's because you used to post there and they followed you here. They facilitate and propagate the Left-Right false dichotomy that is prominent in our political system. Their hope that a Democrat will change things only serves to maintain the pendulum of the status quo in the Sword of Damocles swinging over our heads and getting closer all the time.

Let's get real, folks. No true, viable change can be produced from the Political System we now have. It either has to fall of it's own weight, or it has to be dismantled through violent, or non-violent revolution. I don't think the world, and we as a species, can afford to wait for it to fall of its own weight.

5/25/2007 10:54:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...


Do you actually believe that claptrap about President Bush? Do you actually think the buffoon makes any decisions? I don't. This drunken lush of a moron does whatever he is told, and there's no way in hell, or heaven, or Nirvana, that he's deciding between any dueling factions.

Once again, it's the false-dichotomy at play. If we just get the bad guys out of power, everything will be right again. I don't think you subsribe to that view, but I felt compelled to point it out.

5/25/2007 11:08:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Sounds like a fun club. Where do I pay my dues?

It's actually a Cult. As an initiation, you must shove a Spanish 5 cent piece coin up your ass and keep it there as long as you a member. It's quite a challenge...especially when you contract Mud Butt.

5/25/2007 11:18:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

btw thank fuck the religous mentalists have stopped posting

Don't press our luck...they're always close by, and can come calling at a moment's notice.

5/25/2007 11:22:00 AM  
Blogger just_another_dick said...

Relax Shrub, just thought it was interesting.
I happen to find the republican good cop/bad cop routine amusing.

Christ Shrub, look who the fellow listed as the "diplomats." Rice, Negroponte, Gates & Hayden.

That particular piece was making the rounds on liberal web-sites. I didn't have time to comment on it, but I thought it epitomized the shallow gullibility of left-wingers. They, in my opinion, still cling to the unviable notion that a solution to our problems exists within the current US political system. Something that astounds me given the way the "elected for change" Democrats continue to roll over like good little lap-dogs.

For the record, I doubt Bush could navigate around the Oval Office without a GPS system on his little belt.

If it makes you feel better Shrub watch this clip of Bush being decisive & manly & presidential after a sparrow shits on his sleeve during a press conference. Birds shit on him, but humans elect him. Twice. So, who is the more intelligent Earth species anyway.

5/25/2007 12:25:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Relax Shrub

I'm trying to do just that...but it's a bit difficult since my visit with Zell on Tuesday. He tore open my gum then hacked, sawed and pried molar out of my jaw bone. Didn't put me under....just numbed me up...but thank Buddha for Novocain. It was truly barbaric...something right out of mid-evil times....him grunting and snorting as he tried to extract my stubborn molar.

The reason I mention this to you is because the molar that was removed was the tooth I had the root canal on 14 years prior. The Dentist told me that root canals are not permanent....just a stop gap. Eventually, bacteria works it way down the tooth to the base and creates a home for itself...and you don't know, because there are no pain receptors anymore. Also, the tooth beneath the cap continues to disintegrate to the point it can no longer support the crown. I now have to have an implant which will cost about $2,500. Nice. Something to look forward to with considering your recent root canal.

Anyhow, he gave me a prescript for Hydro was wonderful...but I had to take myself off of it because it was too wonderful. I came down wasn't a good day. Today is much better.

Kids...if you're following my discussion with Richard...take care of your teeth...they are really important to your well being and quality of life.

IC, what about things like proper dental care in this New World you envision?

5/25/2007 12:51:00 PM  
Blogger iridescent cuttlefish said...

Richard & Shrub,

Yes, yes & yes.

You know, there might just be more to the birds crapping on The Leader than meets the camera eye. I was just linking a bunch of stuff from one of my absolute favorite loonies on the web, the crazily beautiful Corpus Mmothra (Hunter-Gatherer Aesthetics / Occulture / Musick / Sturm Und Drang Banana-Peel Pratfalls), including this fully loaded archival link (awesome stuff awaits, I promise, well, that is if you don't mind humorous gnostifications), when I happened upon his treatment of the avian shattery of The Leader: Even The Birds Don't Like Him!

Maybe the cultists have departed this asylum(although Shrub is certainly right about those nimrods who think the fookin' Democrats aren't controlled by the same machine), but there's still room for portends from the heavens, right?

5/25/2007 12:53:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I think I've been misunderstood because of using the words scum and dregs. We are not talking face to face in a public forum sharing and reading excerpts from books and magazine articles. I am able to do this via the internet. I shared and learned rare knowledge that very few people talk about concerning Moon and his mysterious money coming from the east and a bigger picture of Falwell's involvement with this funding source, etc... I did not mean to offend any one. I think I've been misunderstood.

An example of what I meant when I typed scum is a person who had robbed a best friend at gunpoint and he gave the mugger his wallet. But instead of walking away a little richer the mugger shot him to death. I did not mean this to be a religious chastisement but a regular common man type. If and when I see Falwell and Moon as scum I do not want to convey that as meaning something religious either. I was a little upset because I sensed a mischievous raising on top of a pedestal placing of a common killer. I may have been wrong to think that when the words scum and dregs was commented on by another poster. This was me using my common sense.

I was not trying to be evangelistic when I shared the fact of common killers radically changing for the better because of the influence of Jesus in their lives. Sincerely regretting the suffering that they had inflicted on others. I myself am not religious. I do not buy into any institutional religion. I was trying to acknowledge this kind of conversion to decency because of religion by a repentant criminal as common place. Not as an agenda pushed on this public forum.

RI is a learning experience and has been fun too at times. I enjoy many of the posts and very much appreciate the selection of references posted.

5/25/2007 12:57:00 PM  
Blogger iridescent cuttlefish said...

Dental, mental--it's all there...or could be. It doesn't look bloody likely, I'll admit, but things are hardly ever what they seem. Look at the circus they call reality. On the other hand, if a little bird can poop on their heads, why can't we?

5/25/2007 12:59:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...


Nice video. He's actually made progress. Once upon a time he would have snorted that bird shit right off of his he merely wipes it off with his hand and then onto his bologna sandwich behind the podium.

He reminds me of Teddy Roosevelt in the manner in which he took it in stride and kept on truckin like the man he is. Teddy took a bullet and kept on truckin like the Imperialist, and man, he was. It's qualities like this that are the great stuff of presidents.

5/25/2007 01:00:00 PM  
Blogger just_another_dick said...

"I'm trying to do just that...but it's a bit difficult since my visit with Zell on Tuesday. He tore open my gum then hacked, sawed and pried molar out of my jaw bone. Didn't put me under....just numbed me up...but thank Buddha for Novocain. It was truly barbaric...something right out of mid-evil times....him grunting and snorting as he tried to extract my stubborn molar."

Jesus Shrub, we're more in tune then mere coincidence may explain.

I had a wisdom tooth yanked 2 weeks ago. Luckily my dentist insisted on putting me out. Quite lovely actually. One needle prick & then sweet oblivion. Regaining consciousness with nothing worse than a mouth full of bloody gauze.

As far as pain goes though Shrub, on Valentine's Day I dislocated my shoulder-one drawback to not watching don't know the world around you has mutated into one huge ice cube-and that, my friend, was pain. 5 hours of it from initial whoopsie-daisie till the ER doctor actually popped the sucker back in place. I still only have about 60% usage of my left arm

No pain meds for me though. My kind-hearted orthopedic doc told me to take Advil.


5/25/2007 02:18:00 PM  
Blogger iridescent cuttlefish said...

Born of long & foul experience, I prescribe the following products of Nature as the very best defeater of physical pain: opoids mixed with cannaboids, which cocktail was designed to work for just this purpose, with a good book to give you a strong enough focus away from the pain itself. (I've even had some success with just the book and the meditation techniques I've taught myself, on the frequent occasions when the pharmacological larder was bare.)

Aside from the psychological addictiveness of these comforts, they're also completely benign physiologically, unlike what you'll find at your local Walgreen's. I wonder why that might be?

5/25/2007 02:29:00 PM  
Blogger just_another_dick said...

Here's a music video that I can guarantee will never make MTV. It would have fit better under the Falwell post but oh well.....

It's a shame really that it won't get the audience it deserves.

It's sort of "We are the world," for religious psychotics.

Some sample lyrics:

"Well you knew God's Law
but you disobeyed it all
spent your lives
chasing your lust & lies
serving all your idols
fag beasts and bloody flags
fires of Hell are waiting there for you.

God hates the world.
(He hates you!)
and all her people.
(This means you!)
you every one face a fiery day
for your proud sinning.
(Just obey Him!)
It's too late to change His mind
you have lived out your vain lives
storing up God's wrath
for all eternity!

You'll eat your kids.
(Yeah, you'll eat 'em.)
you hateful people.
(The siege is coming.)

I'd like to see that pantywaist Dylan top those lyrics.

5/25/2007 09:59:00 PM  
Blogger sandymac said...

Being of the womanly persuasion, I have never attended a “circle jerk”. Is that what they do at those Skull and Bones rituals? If our leaders get to participate in this type of interesting ceremony, why can’t ‘we’?

I want to read many different opinions and listen to lots of ideas. If someone wants to talk about the 1969 moon landing in a critical manner, what’s wrong with that? Is there something sacred about that topic?

I was recently talking to a 41-year-old man who grew up in NY, on Staten Island. He watched the trade towers being built. He grew up to be an idealistic young man and worked in social services. He’s now suffering from acute depression. We talked at length about his experiences. He attributes the onset of his depression with the first attack on the trade towers in 1993. He had spent many memorable hours in and around Manhattan. He had many fond memories and wished he could take me on a tour. We were in California at the time.

I mentioned that I had heard there were some questions about the collapse of the towers on 9/11. He immediately responded that when he saw the collapse of the first tower he knew it was a “ “. I dare not use the phrase as it will immediately cause a good percentage of the readers to stop thinking. Their minds will jump to a preconceived notion about what “ “ means.

Anyway, this man went on to talk about the put options and other anomalies. It’s clear to me that if this man knew the “truth” about 9/11, the shadow government, all the other lies, and why his social program ideas went down the drain, he’d be able to pull himself up out of the depression swamp. Why? Because he’d have a better understanding about what the f**k is going on and who the culprits are.

Any method at all to get the subject on the discussion table is good. Discernment is the tool.

5/26/2007 01:34:00 AM  
Blogger Terry Hildebrand said...

I am not sure in what way this is relevant. However, the Bush administration probably had no warm feelings for Mineta any way (i.e., easily expendable), as he was the the token Democrat on the Bush Cabinet, a holdover from the Clinton administration.

5/26/2007 06:12:00 AM  
Blogger AJ said...

" would be taxation without representation."

If I am not mistaken, the majority of the US wants to leave IRAQ as soon as possible, don't relish the idea their kids will be paying for this all the while having to pay extra at the gas pumps while certain unmentioned elected officials are laughing all the way to the banks-as the body bags come in day after day.

My dear IC, it is already
taxation without representation, and has been for a few years, as you well know; it's f*king amazing that someone can say it without moving anyone away from their TV sets.
I would almost say it's time to take out a few elected officials, without, that is, bothering with the election process.

Oh, and I wasn't talking dinner.

5/26/2007 10:07:00 PM  
Blogger iridescent cuttlefish said...


Of course it is. Given that money has always dictated the outcome of "elections," democracy in the US has never delivered on that promise. I'm not quite sure what you mean by taking out those officials, but surely you must realize the impossibility of changing the play by merely substituting characters.

While it's a worthwhile endeavor to describe exactly what's wrong with the political process, including a thorough historical examination of what was really going on behind the high school textbook narrative, a working alternative social & economic model is a more immediate priority, because without it we're not only stuck in an abstraction but also unable to see how else things could be.

For example, if we could physically demonstrate the fact that we don't need oil--at all, for anything--then exposing the cynical manipulation of our illusory dependence on it would deflate the balloons of rhetoric that float the current madness far more effectively than yet another rant on the evils of empire. These always fall on deaf ears anyway, since the majority of those who support the status quo really believe the bullshit they've been fed all their lives. I'm not talking about the elite themselves here (they know exactly what they're suppressing), but the foot soldiers, the honestly deceived.

It's like my wife who grew up on the other side of Goebbels' Iron Curtain explained it to me: the difference between East & West is that we believe our own propaganda, while over there they have no such illusions. Maybe it's because we have Hollywood; maybe our production values are so much better because our advertizing geniuses are so muck slicker and we've been tricked for so much longer. Even when we reach the point where we realize we've been swindled, we still don't have any notion of how the world could be if cooperation were finally allowed to replace competition...just like it used to be when we were part of Nature, as opposed to what we've become.

Luckily, the blueprint's still out there, at least for a little while longer. In fact, not to gush to optimistically or anything, but biomimickry is the hottest thing in science right now. It is the only thing that can spare us from this dystopic tidal wave, after all.

5/27/2007 12:53:00 AM  
Blogger Mark said...

IC said:

"While it's a worthwhile endeavor to describe exactly what's wrong with the political process, including a thorough historical examination of what was really going on behind the high school textbook narrative, a working alternative social & economic model is a more immediate priority, because without it we're not only stuck in an abstraction but also unable to see how else things could be."

How about both? :-)

5/27/2007 01:58:00 AM  
Blogger lemme howdt said...

IC -
It is coming with the blue moon, which is much more reare than the 2.7 years that WIKI implies. The second full moon of the two full moon month of the second consecutive year. The aura round the moon now is awesome. The once in a blue moon awakening will be followed by a chaos we wouldn't believe, but guess what - everybody will have theior own ideas of how to go.
The symmetry required is first an inversion, then a rotation. The pyramid needs to be inverted with the plain of grass roots facing the sky and a smaller support structure nourishing it. The Church of the Living Earth is the new wave that i will be connecting with, but you guys are all welcome to surf any wave that you would like, as long as you catch it. I have a statue i call western civ - the second burning will take place sometime in july ...after the wave has started becoming a tsunami.
Try base eight rather than base ten.

5/27/2007 08:57:00 AM  
Blogger The Way It Can Be said...

Rules of Engagement

It would be helpful for truth seekers of the political, economic & social varieties to have some "rules of engagement" regarding any given investigation.

Let me start the ball rolling with a tentative list:

* keep data collection separate from analysis; also, keep recommendations separate.
* forbid errors of logic, deduction or argument such as attacking the person or invoking the past
* assign a weighting for the importance of various facts

etc. etc.

Maybe this has already been done.. maybe the blogs & mass media information is avoiding doing this because it's vested in the official story. In any case, we can use something existing or start fresh but let's give it a clarity and punch that's unassailable..

Does this already exist? Is the truth out there now?

Evan Palmer
The Way It Can Be

5/27/2007 09:23:00 AM  
Blogger iridescent cuttlefish said...


Yes, of course you're right--we need both, ultimately. Maybe even concurrently. I guess my point about the competing narratives (the fable of manifest destiny vs. the ugly revelations of the cui bono investigators) is that both sides preach almost exclusively to their own choirs, while a competing social & economic model has yet to emerge, understandably enough, given the control of the Owners. I didn't mean to disparage the cui boners; we need their research if we're to plot a new course that doesn't get switched back to the old rails.

To that end, there's already a vast body of work our there which we might know but which has hardly become familiar with the general public, as we saw recently with that ridiculous performance at the Republican Torture Convention. Ron Paul was not the first one to have his blowback pie thrown back in his own face by the outraged loyalists. Remember when USAma tim Osman was shown holding a copy of William Blum's Rogue State? Blum shrugs it off as coincidence, but it seemed a little too coincidental to me. (I'm not even sure I believe in such a thing as coincidence anymore, truth to tell.)

Now, the field of "alternative" (honest?) history is not exactly monolithic, except in a general agreement on the notion that the old Nazi Henry Ford was actually right about one thing, when he said that history was bunk. Beyond that, you've got a spectrum of viewpoints that goes from a sort of strict, almost conventional historical investigation--folks like Charles Higham and the blowback twins (Chalmers Johnson & Christopher Simpson). The second tier is occupied by those with particular axes to grind, and this is where it gets a bit more subjective--writers like Zinn and Zezima who are okay, I guess, and of course Chomsky, whom I don't really trust anymore, as he's become so stereotypically anti-establishment that he's now a figurehead of a different orthodoxy. (He's also guilty of manufacturing some consent himself, which is a sin that's hard to forgive in a scholar.)

Then you have people like our host here, who seem to chart their own course, unbound by any conventions. I know that some of you guys have taken him to task over his 9/11 agnosticism, but you are also reasonable enough to agree that there are bigger fish to fry (well, except for that Sniffer person, for whom all universes are born and die at the shrine he's built around that false flag op.) The fact that Jeff is willing to consider so many varieties of weirdness and yet retains his Canadian sensibilities (modesty, politeness & humor) is what makes him so engaging, I think.

I've gone off track here a bit with describing how the metanarrative might be set straight or unlocked, because I wanted to address something in that new post you linked, Mark. As usual, I loved it. It's logical, it's a practical framework for change, it's wide-ranging enough to encompass more than just the physical aspects of life...but there is one small deficiency (I guess I'd call it) in the plan. Ironically enough, the missing piece is a bit of the theoretical abstraction I just said wasn't enough.

In the section where you talk about these meetings between designers & users (which is a brilliant conception of a feedback loop, btw) you give the example of a user who says he wants a hydrogen engine, whereupon this need is supposed to ignite the creative forge of the designer, etc. My problem with this example is not that the alternative energy technology in question is impossible, it's that the very short feedback loop may not be the best way to solve some tough problems. It puts an unfair and unnecessary onus on the poor designer. More importantly, it leaves out a cumulative body of research elsewhere obtained that even the most eager of engineers would be hard-pressed to replicate.

Remember that n'Kozi stuff I talk about so much--the genius who discovered how to build energy, water & food independent houses, create sustainable communities, etc? Well, this guy, Joseph Feigelson, didn't do this all on his own. Instead, he started, as you do in your hypothetical feedback loop, by describing a need--in this case a solution to the misery that is life in Africa--and then, instead of going straight to the clean slate of the empty blackboard, he looked back at the work of the forgotten masters of the other scientific tradition which has been relegated to obscurity. He began by looking at what's called the Five Solids as found in Nature, which is based on discoveries made long, long ago by Pythagoras and others.

Then, making further use of the work of Bucky Fuller and others, he devised a system that provides for a revolutionary way of life that is based on ancient, universal truths. This is what Schauberger was talking about with his kapieren & kopieren philosophy, which Maggie Lee talks about in her review of Jane Cobbald's Viktor Schauberger: A Life of Learning from Nature:

Schauberger acknowledged the wisdom of great thinkers before him. Cobbald includes a favored quote – the last line from Goethe’s Faust“The Eternal Feminine draws us onwards”. I found it telling that within the span of 235 years, J.W. von Goethe, Viktor Schauberger, Wilhelm Reich, Nikola Tesla and Theodor Schwenk lived and pioneered, collectively, the deeper recognition of the organic totality of Nature, influencing deep ecology, Gaia Theory and Biomysticism today. Through their intuitive sensing and exploration into the intensive dimensions and living intelligence of Nature, their cumulative wisdom and practical initiatives contain life-affirming, regenerative solutions for the malaise facing our culture and the Earth.

For more on the links in the chain that connect n'Kozi and similar projects back to Schauberger, Kepler and Pythagoras, try the PKS Institute. Here's one thing that Kepler had to say about it:

We do not ask for what useful purpose the birds do sing, for song is their pleasure since they were created for singing. Similarly, we ought not to ask why the human mind troubles to fathom the secrets of the heavens ... The diversity of the phenomena of Nature is so great, and the treasures hidden in the heavens so rich, precisely in order that the human mind shall never be lacking in fresh nourishment.
— Johannes Kepler, Mysterium Cosmographicum, 1596.

The reason I make this distinction, Mark, is not to fault your vision, which I very much applaud. You are right when you say that each watershed is unique and should be treated as such; that the solutions to each watershed's crisis should evolve from the feedback loop that grows at each region. I only hoped to add to this the idea that there are also universal principles in Nature which can be applied anywhere, especially in questions of complex technologies. Then, again, Tesla enthusiast that you are, you already know all this, right?


5/27/2007 01:44:00 PM  
Blogger AJ said...

".. and yet retains his Canadian sensibilities (modesty, politeness & humor) is what makes him so engaging.."

Suck up.

Anyway IC, I have lost all faith in higher echelon politics given that it's quite obvious that my gas is more valuable than burning it to cast a (digital) vote down at city center.
I must agree with your ascertion regarding Jeff's ability to talk around emotional items (like 911) and suggest other ways to look at the data we have.
It keeps for a saner non-Alex Jones demeanor.
But what can we do?
You wax on philosophically concerning items of the material universe we live in(which is admittedly good stuff),but how do these well articulated notions of yours help us practically?
I need to pay some bills.
And win the lottery.

5/27/2007 10:04:00 PM  
Blogger Mark said...

Hi IC, who said:

"In the section where you talk about these meetings between designers & users (which is a brilliant conception of a feedback loop, btw) you give the example of a user who says he wants a hydrogen engine, whereupon this need is supposed to ignite the creative forge of the designer, etc....I only hoped to add to this the idea that there are also universal principles in Nature which can be applied anywhere, especially in questions of complex technologies. Then, again, Tesla enthusiast that you are, you already know all this, right?"

Oh yes. The examples were just rhetorical for what is already available. I was not implying that every little place would be forced to entirely reinvent the wheel. I was just showing that the wider window of known possibilities of known technologies could be utilized, instead of reinvented, without larger forms of monopolistic gatekeeping against them.

Since I clipped some of the text from a longer description of a previous post about commodity ecology, I knew that some things might be lost in translation, though I wanted a shorter post for these quicker descriptions. You might be interested to see the actual links I clipped out there.

Just a related group of videos on this point:

Stan Meyer: Water Car Inventor Murdered [THIS IS AN EXCERPT of this longer 50 minute BBC aired film, "It Runs on Water"]
16 min - Apr 8, 2006 - (802 ratings)
[New Zealand] water bike on 60 minutes: Free energy is here NOW: http://www.gigagone. ...

The next 'Stan Meyer', below. Fox News covered it of all organizations, in Florida. Denny Klein of Hydrogen Technologies, with patents like Meyers actually goes to lackey Congress and demonstrated his water car to them all. Still silence:

Water Car
3 min - May 23, 2006 - (25 ratings)
A car that runs on water. I tried to e-mail the news people to get when this ...

Very good backgrounder, on the same effect under a different name and different technological tweaking:
Phenomenon Archives: Heavy Watergate, The War Against Cold Fusion
46 min - Oct 19, 2006 - (130 ratings)
Heavy Watergate, the War Against Cold Fusion,' viewers investigate the idea of cold ...

Equinox - It Runs on Water (1995)
50 min - Apr 17, 2006 - small full starsmall full starsmall full starsmall full starsmall half star (634 ratings)

Excerpts from Cold Fusion: Fire from Water (1999)
38 min - Jan 5, 2007
... phenomenal 1999 documentary Cold Fusion: Fire from Water, produced by [soon dead under supposedly suspicious circumstances] Eugene Mallove...[the ex-MIT researcher who quit when he found high level U.S. government orchestrated scientific fraud in the MIT study "disproving" cold fusion--MIT had huge 'hot fusion' physics contracts to keep up, like many other areas--and this was watersplitting with typical 'nuclear ash' like helium and tritium, though without radiation--and done with chemistry instead of with 50 years of pricey Big Science technology

[The last one 'talks down' on solar, though that was from 1999. There are three novel technologies now that make solar even cheaper than coal/oil, and operatable in different climates.]

5/27/2007 10:47:00 PM  
Blogger TonyForesta said...

fLeave it to the fascist warmongers, profiteers, and pathological liars in the Bush government to pimp bird shitting on dear leader as a sign of "good luck". Next they will be telling us we're making progress in Iraq, freedom is on the march, the mission is accomplished, the socalled terrorists are in their last throes, and Bush is a man of business acumen, who speaks to some unknown unknown god in the WH.

America is a nation of somnabulants and robopathic drones who actually believe freaks shatians, and patholocal liars like cheney and bush!

"Deliver us from evil!"

5/28/2007 12:11:00 AM  
Blogger Mark said...

I've heard of this guy, though this is the first time I have seen him interviewed:

Interview with Philippines Inventor Daniel Dingel About his Water Car (2002) (9:37) Dingel has run his prototype cars on water since the 1960s (he talks of the World Bank/IMF keeping it from development in his country, with the threat of they will refuse to give the greater Philippines any loans if they help Dingel; he talks quickly about one-sided contracts that Germans and Japanese have attempted to give him, that he refused. He says he wants to start a foundation to fund mass production, instead of the potential strings that come from exclusive patent rights that the German automakers or Japanese automakers wanted from him, who have contacted him.

Here's another Japanese water car (3:31)

Here's an Air Car arrangement.

Frenchman Guy Negre's Air Car (8:52)
Beyond Tomorrow 2005 more info:
MDI (Motor Development International, Inc., located in Nice, France),
on the show Beyond Tomorrow (2005). Supposedly, this program indicates they are starting to sell these commercially in 2006--in 2, 4, or 6 cylinder versions starting around $15,000.

Ideally, one tweak would be to put some solar power panels on the roof and an air compressor onboard, and the whole infrastructure of even having to stop to "refuel" (put in more compressed air) is unrequired.

5/28/2007 01:04:00 AM  
Blogger just_another_dick said...

"...and of course Chomsky, whom I don't really trust anymore, as he's become so stereotypically anti-establishment that he's now a figurehead of a different orthodoxy. (He's also guilty of manufacturing some consent himself, which is a sin that's hard to forgive in a scholar.)"

I have another word for Chomsky IC, it's called a hypocrite.

Chomsky, who loudly speaks out against tax shelters for the wealthy & the corporate malfeasance of oil & pharmaceutical companies, amongst others,has both a tax shelter for his wealth & a stock portfolio that invests in the very corporations he criticizes.

When asked about his tax shelter, set up by the prestigious Boston law firm Palmer & Dodge, he said, “"I don’t apologize for putting aside money for my children and grandchildren."

When asked about his stock investments Mr. Chomsky said, "Should I live in a cabin in Montana?"

While both are fair questions, they do tend to fly in the face of what he preaches from his pulpit.

This brings me to the crux of my dislike for left-wing "elites." No matter how loudly they publicly crow about solidarity with working class shmoes like me, privately they seem to do their best to ensure that they don't ever find themselves reduced to actually having to work side by side with me.

Not that I favor a right-wing view either, but with right-wingers you know at the outset that you're going to be bent over your desk & ass fucked.
Left-wing "elites," for all their solidarity blather, really do little more than buy you some roses & maybe a cheap dinner before they bend you over your desk & fuck you in your ass.

If I'm being a Negative Nora again IC, I apologize at the outset. I spent 16 hours working with a 23 year old Rush Limbaugh echo chamber. After I had successfully rebuffed every plagiarized Limbaugh view he threw at me, he resorted to bringing up Clinton. When i pointed out to the junior league wet behind the ears fresh out of diapers dipshit that I didn't vote for Clinton, he continued to shower me with the sins of Clinton.

I will say this though, for someone who wasn't even born when Saint Reagan was elected, he sure had a deep & Limbaugh-injected love for the old coot.

My only consolation comes in knowing that I can be as obnoxious in person as I am on the internet, so I'm fairly certain his day ended in an even worse mood than mine did.

5/28/2007 01:34:00 AM  
Blogger Mark said...

One more coda: I didn't know the huge conglomerate General Motors now has one. Literally. Only one. Though others are mass producing other things already though, GM seems to be working toward turning it into the ultimate cross-roadway platform (since the driver's location can be quickly moved back and forth, from left or right), as well as a 'one car for all uses' since you can remove the top, and 'clip on' a different body for convertibles, trucks, vans, etc.--all from one car base you own.

GM Hy-Wire water car on Top Gear (5:49)

5/28/2007 01:53:00 AM  
Blogger iridescent cuttlefish said...


Yeah, I'd have to agree with all that you've said, except, maybe, for the sucking-up jab--Jeff is a congenial soul and while his Canadian-ness might not have anything to do with it, I think it's readily apparent that the incidence of twit-ism that so afflicts certain circles of Englishmen is considerably lower among the their lumberjacking cousins. The same could be said for the Aussies, I suppose, although their rough good nature coming about as a result of their penal colony heritage would be something of an affront to my relatives in Moose Jaw, salt of the earth that they are. (They're also krauts, by way of national origin, so the analogy's a bit muddied there, too.)

I do feel some debt of gratitude to Jeff, though, considering how he's tolerated the many hundreds of pages of my sermonizing in this blog, much of it inexcusably off-topic. Maybe he tolerates me because what I say isn't really opposed to his POV but simply chasing the same goal via a different route.

Speaking of which, you said something very interesting about the materiality of all that new green world stuff that I post--that it seems to be lacking a spiritual dimension. I've thought about it a bit and I believe that I've come up with something of a response: it is possible, I think, to combine the two worlds.

If we think about the West's immense dislocation from the natural world--the ravenous, cannibal appetite that informs our conspicuous consumption, then our spiritual dislocation, or emptiness, seems to have a common source. If we were to build communities that were based on cooperation with each other and Nature, then I think the distinction between material & spiritual wouldn't really matter so much anymore.

When I was much younger, I learned woodworking from some old Polish guys who were definitely in it for the money, but they passed on to me a sense of creative fulfilment nontheless that was very, very spiritual. Now, it's easier to see this in work that has such an aesthetic/artistic dimension than if you're a mindless robot in some dreary office or factory, but the idea is the same. It echoes Freud's definition of sanity (which he himself borrowed from much older sources)--the ability to love and to work. If we can reorganize the way we live & work so that our work itself is a labor of love, then we'll have intertwined the material and the spiritual such that they won't be so easy to separate anymore.

When love is both the fuel that drives us and the destination of our "progress," then life will have achieved a balance within us.

Continuing in this vein...


I thought as much--that you presented that example to illustrate the nature of the feedback loop and were not intending to reinvent any wheels. Just thought I'd mention it. And thanks for all those alternative energy links. They remind me of three ideas. One was a quote from Tesla:

"I have harnessed the cosmic rays and caused them to operate a motive device."

Another is the weird controversy surrounding Galileo's concept of the old Book of Nature idea. For those unfamiliar, Galileo sort of turned the old notion of there being two books of life on its head. There was thought to be a Book of Nature and a Book of Spirit, where the latter was preeminent and only to be read & understood by those of the priestly caste, until Galileo came around and said that unless we understood the language of nature (which was mathematics, of course), we were doomed to pointlessly wander a dark labyrinth for all eternity.

A great deal has been made of this--at the time it was one plank in the case of heresy being made against Galileo by the priests who saw their position threatened by "rude mechanics," while others saw it as a confirmation of Newton's clockwork universe, and still others interpreted it as conferring upon the natural phliosophers the staus of a new priesthood, since they were the only ones who understood Nature's language. There's a great discussion of all this at Luboš Motl's Reference Frame blog. Motl, a self-described "conservative physicist" whose perspective is that of the "superstringy" theorist, has great fun with the modern fear of Galileo's book of nature in a post called After 391 years, Galileo is dangerous again. (Strongly recommended.)

Galileo's Book of Nature metaphor is dangerous, insofar that it has a certain truth & power about it. I've been throwing it around in very different contexts from those used by Luboš Motl and Robert Crease (the science writer whom it scares), but it's extraordinary how little it matters what the specific context is--the truth of the idea approaches the universal.

Motl, (whose name, interestingly enough, is almost "motyl," which means "butterfly" in Czech--even further interestingly, one of his blogs is called Lumídkova užvatlaná zahrádka, which translates as a sort of "garden of conversations."--unfortunately for us, it's only available in Czech.) In his Reference Frame blog, however, he's got this excellent discussion of an article by a guy named Robert Crease who finds Galileo's Book of Nature idea "dangerous" for a number of reasons, including:

* that it allows for some sort of intelligent design (or designer),

* that it posits an ultimately "knowable" universe (that we'll one day refine or find a Grand Unified Field Theory), and

* that scientists are seen by some as some sort of priest class guarding the specialized knowledge (dogma?) which only they can really understand.

I won't go any further into the battle of the scientificos here, since you'd be better off reading it for yourself at Motl's After 391 years, Galileo is dangerous again and Crease's The book of nature, but I will say that while I much prefer Motl's position (mostly because Crease seems to be extremely defensive and reactionary--in another piece he extols the bounteous gifts that Western thought, via the engine of capitalism and science in the service thereof, has brought to an ungrateful world), I think that Motl is also open-minded enough to enjoy Bibhas De's unrelenting criticism of the business of science, even though Motl himself is a proud adherent to the superstring model which De dissects with such precision.

I think Motl would also enjoy the thoughts of another science guy, Ian Yorston, whose blog, The Unreasonable Man carries such practical considerations as - Money and Politics: Illuminating the Connection (Amazing: brings together US campaign contributions and how legislators vote, providing an unprecedented window into the connections between money and politics.)

Yorston also talks about Prof. David Singmaster's essay, The Unreasonable Utility of Recreational Mathematics, which brings us full circle back to Motl, Crease & Galileo. For some additional perspective (which is really my point in describing all these things), Einstein was famously puzzled by the strange contradiction he saw in mathematics being the language of Nature. His puzzlement centered on his belief that man had invented math, as opposed to discovering it. It's no wonder that this idea puzzled our most famous Uncle Albert, since something we invented can hardly be expected to not only "be" everywhere in the universe, but even to explain, undergird (whichever defining principle you care to use) Nature itself.

The solution to Einstein's quandary, as well as the heated debate between the creationists and the hardcore mechanistic/materialists, seems painfully obvious to me, although that's probably due to my own faulty education. If man has merely discovered the language of Nature, then we can very neatly take our enormous ego right out of the picture with some prodigiously satisfying results.

This means that, yes, we can (and should) safely look to the Book of Nature for lessons still unlearned: practical stuff, like how to build upon Nature's blueprints, modeling our technology and even our societal structures on the interconnected web of niche & cooperation that is the real Nature, as opposed to the self-serving tooth, nail & claw model pimped by the social Darwinists, the robber barons, the hegemonists and the eugenicists. (I left out the corporate apologists, but they're obviously in there, trumpeting this kind of propaganda from every silicon minaret.)

Of course, in order for such a sea change among the labcoats, they'd have to engage in a bit of introspection, including an examination of how Darwin & Malthus have been yoked to a cause which is not mankind's, but it's just a matter of perspective, after all. Maybe they'll even rehabilitate Goethe one day...but then we're coming back to familiar territory, as you guys have all heard this from me before.

Why can't Nature be our guide? Why can't there be many paths to the same goal? Many, many bright souls have found the world of mathematics to be a very beautiful, even magical place. From the chaos math theorists who espouse the fractal beauty of nature position, which takes care of the trap of determinism into which Dawkins falls with open arms (if not eyes) to the Musical Universe people, like Wallace Russell, whose theories resonate with Tesla & Schauberger very nicely.

I think Richard says something very important about this when he talks about the hypocrisy of Chomsky & the liberal elite. Not only is talk so very cheap--so is life when all we have to work toward a saner world are the smug utterances of hypocrites like Chomsky. Let's not forget that it was Jimmy Carter, patron saint of the so-called Left, who said while in office, when it mattered:

“An attempt by any outside force to gain control of the Persian Gulf region will be regarded as an assault on the vital interests of the United States of America, and such an assault will be repelled by any means necessary, including military force.”

Roughly translated, this means that's our oil under their sand, goddammit! Sure, Jimmy gets all kinds of praise now for questioning Israel's 51st statehood, but it's all talk, talk, talk. His Habitat for Humanity is an empty promise, too, let me tell you, because it just continues the same old shit, just like his foreign policy did.

Richard, you don't need to apologize for anything here, especially not honesty. I would even question whther your "negativity" is any different from our friend Joe's, who puts his money where his mouth is far more than any of these heroes on the "our side." He's a got a new one, too, that starts like this:

Ghosts of Tim Leary and Hunter Thompson: Freedom vs. Authority under the 40-foot pulsating rainbow vagina

Everything Americans think they know, they learned from a televised morality play...

5/29/2007 03:06:00 PM  
Blogger jhw said...


I know the moon hoax theory is often written off as bad science, but after studying it- I am needing to be convinced that we actually did send men to the moon. Rightly or wrongly I tend now to be carefull when and where I state this, because it really gets people upset, its seems to be more so than 9-11. I haven't studied it for a while, but it was the combination of many things such as the photos/TV footage (some suggest that just the photos/TV footage was faked), the prior failed attempts, the deaths, the van allen belts, film not rated for those temps, the collier video, the nazi/nasa overlap (not conclusive in it of itself, but interesting), the lunar module, the astronauts behavior.... Thanks!

5/29/2007 04:10:00 PM  
Blogger Emlon said...

Regarding running a car on water:

A Florida man has invented a device which uses radio waves to cause saltwater to burn at high temperatures. Though his process requires that he put the saltwater into a device which requires power to create the radio waves, and is therefore using more energy than it is producing, a similar concept using the naturally occuring radio waves of our sun might be harnessed and produce similar combustion.

5/29/2007 04:55:00 PM  
Blogger Sounder said...

For me, the trouble with ‘discovery’, is its association with Platonic Idealism. The implication is that thing in itself is being recognized, when in fact it’s only another conceptual distillation of what one thinks he sees. The ego problem still manifests when the Idealist thinks he can grasp the ‘thing in itself’, while the relativist, thinking that the thing in itself has no existence, swims in a morass of self-validating conceptions.

Aristotle dealt with this controversy by saying that any answer is dependent on the form of the question.

5/29/2007 09:25:00 PM  
Blogger iridescent cuttlefish said...

Yeah, you're right about that weird trap between observer & observed, Sounder, but here's how I meant that part about discovery vs. invention: if we call it a discovery of something in nature, as opposed to some thing we created, then ego has no place to hitch a ride. If, for example, the golden mean can be demonstrated in countless places in Nature, what difference does it make who supposedly first recognized the pattern? What I'm trying to do here is, I think, what Galileo meant--that there exist phenomena in nature, outside of and totally separate from our subjective frames of reference (even though we perceive them by means of those FOR) the knowledge of which can benefit us and this dying starship. Instead of getting hung up on the definitions of what is real, if we could agree that we exist, the universe exists, and these phenomena exist, we might be able to do something with them (even if we're essentially agreeing to a fiction.)

People who are starving or slowly going out of their minds aren't going to much care whether we think they're real or not, and I really do believe that Galileo was sincere with his labyrinth metaphor and not just looking for some Renaissance publicity (especially considering whose attention he ended up getting...)

5/30/2007 12:23:00 AM  
Blogger iridescent cuttlefish said...

Or is this more along the lines of what you were thinking, Sounder?

5/30/2007 12:59:00 AM  
Blogger just_another_dick said...

"Instead of getting hung up on the definitions of what is real, if we could agree that we exist, the universe exists, and these phenomena exist, we might be able to do something with them (even if we're essentially agreeing to a fiction.)"

Getting people to agree to a "fiction" doesn't appear all that hard IC.

Human history appears to be one huge 'all you can eat' "fiction" buffet.

Hell, once you get past "In the beginning was the Word,"I think it's all fucking "fiction."

Of course, the trick comes in getting them to believe in your "fiction," doesn't it IC?

Not that I find your view abhorrent IC, I just have this sinking feeling that the "fictions" that really grab us by the short hairs always seem to end with huge effing amounts of bloodshed.

Oh, we may feel guilty afterward, & we may flail around looking for someone to blame, but, in the end, the gullible fuck who is really responsible for it all is staring back at us from the mirror every morning.

We're either too cowardly or too damn butt stupid to actually look at it.

Until that little chunk of "real" can be agreed upon it's just going to be more of the same ol' shit stew justified & rationalized right down the big overfed gullet of bovine America.

Can I get a "Moo?"

Can I get a "Baa?"

Having said that IC, I have one question for you. A few years back I happened to read an interview with a chap who worked in the artificial flavoring industry.
He said that they had 'artificial flavoring' perfected to such a great degree that they could make shit with the consistency & flavor of applesauce. The only reason they couldn't market it was because it was 'shit.'

Now my question, IC, is why would that stop them?

We, as a species, have been swallowing huge amounts of shit for ages. I think that making it actually taste like applesauce would be a step up, don't you?

5/30/2007 02:13:00 AM  
Blogger Mark said...

Thanks, ecitraro. Nice catch.

5/30/2007 02:30:00 AM  
Blogger Sounder said...

Man oh man, love that Portman/Goethe material. I can go to school on this stuff.

5/30/2007 07:11:00 AM  
Blogger Mark said...

said above

"Here's an Air Car arrangement.
Frenchman Guy Negre's Air Car (8:52) Beyond Tomorrow 2005 more info:
MDI (Motor Development International, Inc., located in Nice, France), on the show Beyond Tomorrow (2005). Supposedly, this program indicates they are starting to sell these commercially in 2006--in 2, 4, or 6 cylinder versions starting around $15,000."


India is now mass manufacturing Negre's non-oil compressed air driven automobiles as of February 2007! No pollution. Not even water vapor pollution. Just air in and air out pumping the pistons. Quoting the press release:

MDI signed an agreement with Tata Motors - NEW

An engine which uses air as fuel
Tata Motors and technology inventor, MDI of France, sign agreement

MUMBAI, 5th of February 2007

Tata Motors, in keeping with its role as the leading company in India for automotive R&D, has signed an agreement, in yet another exciting engineering and development effort, with MDI of France for application in India of MDI's path-breaking technology for engines powered by air.

The MDI Group is headed by Mr. Guy Negre, who founded the company in the 1990s in pursuit of his dream to pioneer an engine using just compressed air as fuel - which may be the ultimate environment-friendly engine yet. Besides, the engine is efficient, cost-effective, scalable, and capable of other applications like power generation.

The agreement between Tata Motors and MDI envisages Tata's supporting further development and refinement of the technology, and its application and licensing for India.

Commenting on the agreement, Mr. Guy Negre has said, "MDI has for many years been engaged in developing environment-friendly engines. MDI is happy to conclude this agreement with Tata Motors and work together with this important and experienced industrial group to develop a new and cost-saving technology for various applications for the Indian market that meets with severe regulations for environmental protection. [It's a non exclusive agreement:] We are continuing the development with our own business concept of licensing car manufacturers in other parts of the world where the production is located close to the markets. We have also developed this new technology for other applications where cost competitiveness combined with respect for environmental questions has our priority."

- About MDI; MDI is a small, family-controlled company located at Carros, near Nice (Southern France) where Mr. Guy Negre and Mr. Cyril Nègre, together with their technical team, have developed a new engine technology with the purpose of economising energy and respect severe ecological requirements - at competitive costs.

- About Tata Motors; Tata Motors is India's largest automobile company, with revenues of US$ 5.5 billion in 2005-06. With over 4 million Tata vehicles plying in India, it is the leader in commercial vehicles and the second largest in passenger vehicles. It is also the world's fifth largest medium and heavy truck manufacturer and the second largest heavy bus manufacturer. Tata cars, buses and trucks are being marketed in several countries in Europe, Africa, the Middle East, South Asia, and South East Asia and in Australia.

Tata Motors and Fiat Auto have announced the formation of an industrial joint venture in India to manufacture passenger cars, engines and transmissions for the Indian and overseas markets. Tata Motors already distributes Fiat-branded cars in India.

The company's international footprint include Tata Daewoo Commercial Vehicle Co. Ltd. in South Korea; Hispano Carrocera, a bus and coach manufacturer of Spain in which the company has a 21% stake; a joint venture with Marcopolo, the Brazil-based body-builder of buses and coaches; and a joint venture with Thonburi Automotive Assembly Plant Company of Thailand to manufacture and market pickup vehicles in Thailand. Tata Motors has research centres in India, the UK, and in its subsidiary and associate companies in South Korea and Spain.


Here's CNN-India on it:

Saturday , March 24, 2007 [just a couple of days ago]
VIDEO: CNN-India: Car that runs on air in India soon (01:11)

that last link probably shows why Negre's is still alive, it tips its hat to the oil majors diplomatically though it's completely unrequired (in other Australian air cars for instance):

"it would have a top speed of around 60 kmh using air alone and 200 kmh using an air and petrol combination engine. The beauty of the car, which is made of foam and fibreglass but has survived official crash tests, is that it switches engines as you increase speed. So it will move to the air engine at about 60 km/hr and will automatically switch to combination engine at higher speeds."

My favorite Youtube comments there:

indiansangel (3 weeks ago)
yeah, india, freakin cars that run on air !!!!!!

rayofminneapolis (1 week ago)
The whole world is out innovating America while we debate non-solution "alternatives". FU*K!

I bet that if you disconnect that magic oil surtax switch on the air cars (NOT on any of Negre's previous models, from 2005!), it will work on air at higher speeds as well, just fine...?

Negre succeeded where Ford failed: Negre brought almost completely non-oil cars to mass manufacture, something that the oil majors always kept Ford from achieving. Cuts out the steel makers as well, something Ford dreamed of doing and failed as well (i.e., his famous squirreled away recipe for the 'hemp plastics car.')

5/30/2007 07:41:00 AM  
Blogger ericswan said...

Richard..The only way this fiction is allowed to continue is in the nature of the suppressed high teck that Tesla picked up. It finally leads down one road and that is time travel. We have to assume that these dumb lunatics can simply go to that magic mirror and read next week's newspaper. If they don't like what they see, they "edit".

5/30/2007 09:42:00 AM  
Blogger Mark said...

eric said:

"Richard..The only way this fiction is allowed to continue is in the nature of the suppressed high teck that Tesla picked up. It finally leads down one road and that is time travel. We have to assume that these dumb lunatics can simply go to that magic mirror and read next week's newspaper. If they don't like what they see, they "edit"."

It may be more constrained than this 'lending library' model. I would assume that this technology is highly under wraps and with limited accessibility (given information associated around the "" stories about Montauk and the books, videos, interviews, they have produced etc.) Second, I remember someone in this group saying that there would be a large danger of timeline instabilities or human life instabilities in some sense of such repeated 'writing/erasures', particularly if undertaken very close together temporally. And some implied they can't do anything to people for years afterwards if they were involved in the operation because it would presumably have some 'afterimage' repercussions in unpredictable ways. If they do have such a power, and I would think they do, they know its a dangerous technology. I would instead assume it's a very small 'they', and it hasn't seemingly been used with all the flubs of the Bush neocons...since...we still remember them. (Though of course you might argue that what we are (re)experiencing is the 'better version' from their point of view already). You'd have to watch the mindbending discussions of these presumed "Montauk outs" to make up your own mind about that though.

Just one example:

Montauk and Philadelphia experiment Al Bielek Preston Nichols
1 hr 9 min - Mar 9, 2006
... final underground interview on the montauk project. ...

5/30/2007 10:32:00 AM  
Blogger iridescent cuttlefish said...

I'm right with you, there, Richard. Really--check out that latest Joe Bageant link on mind control and the fiction we call reality. My comment was directed to Sounder's objection to my solution to the quandary of ego & perception, which was outlined in all that Galileo stuff and which (very strangely) is running at the same time on the discussion board.

You see, I sort of inadvertantly referred to a very smart guy as a "cranky bastard," only to wake up to an email in my inbox from the affronted smart person. So, I responded, tying that discussion to this one and four or five other ones floating out there somewhere...

Back to your comment: all the so-called utopian revolutions were either staged by the cunning elites or subverted from within. As I was explaining to my devout Thai Buddhist friend yesterday (who is bewildered by the discrepancy between what we say and what we do in this country), the reason for the milk of paradise going sour is our willingness to justify our actions by the glory of our vision. Not that the spokesmen for corporate Christianity will admit to this, but Jesus once explained the reason why the CIA is a well-intentioned terrorist organization, just like all the other ones:

The ends can never justify the means because you become the means you employ.

No shortcuts, no deals, no temporary suspension of morality. Karma eats dogma every day. (Sorry for the bumper-speak, but it really contains the whole problem within the smallest possible space, I think.)

As I advised the discussion board, we should really cross-link this thing.


This page from on the Air Car has some interesting links, especially Angelo DiPietro's version, which used to have a further link to a DARPA white paper on military applications (fuel from any source, anywhere), but this disappeared and I can't find it anywhere now. They also talk about some kind of strange intrigues (surprise!) between the air car developers...

5/30/2007 02:17:00 PM  
Blogger just_another_dick said...

Here's some "fiction" from the New York Times.

The psychologists and other specialists, commissioned by the Intelligence Science Board, make the case that more than five years after the Sept. 11 attacks, the Bush administration has yet to create an elite corps of interrogators trained to glean secrets from terrorism suspects.

While billions are spent each year to upgrade satellites and other high-tech spy machinery, the experts say, interrogation methods — possibly the most important source of information on groups like Al Qaeda — are a hodgepodge that date from the 1950s, or are modeled on old Soviet practices.


Mr. Kleinman, who worked as an interrogator in Iraq in 2003, called the post-Sept. 11 efforts “amateurish” by comparison to the World War II program, with inexperienced interrogators who worked through interpreters and had little familiarity with the prisoners’ culture.

The Intelligence Science Board study has a chapter on the long history of police interrogations, which it suggests may contain lessons on eliciting accurate confessions. And Mr. Borum, the psychologist, said modern marketing may be a source of relevant insights into how to influence a prisoner’s willingness to provide information.

“We have a whole social science literature on persuasion,” Mr. Borum said. “It’s mostly on how to get a person to buy a certain brand of toothpaste. But it certainly could be useful in improving interrogation.


In a prologue to the December report, the first of a planned series, Mr. Fein said the shortage of research meant that many American interrogators were “forced to ‘make it up’ on the fly,” resulting in “unfortunate cases of abuse.”

But associates say Mr. Fein does not want to antagonize intelligence officials, whom he hopes to persuade to bring the reality check of research to bear on interrogation practices.


A. B. Krongard, who was the executive director of the C.I.A., the No. 3 post at the agency, from 2001 to 2004, agreed with that assessment but acknowledged that the agency had to create an interrogation program from scratch in 2002.

So, acording to the NYT anyway, the entire body of CIA mind control research doesn't exist &, due to 911, they were forced to cobble together interrogation techniques "on the fly."

& all that "social science literature on persuasion" is only used for innocuous things like "selling toothpaste."

Hmmm...maybe the NYT could use some of that persuasion literature to convince me that this isn't one huge pile of crapola wrapped up in newsprint.

5/30/2007 02:48:00 PM  
Blogger Mark said...

IC said:

"They also talk about some kind of strange intrigues (surprise!) between the air car developers..."

Er, where is that discussion? It's not in the (unsurprisingly) Wiki-hashed article you linked to, and missing from the page where I thought it might be based on what you said.

Just to make it clear on the relevance of material politics on RI, let's just say that there is a parapolitics of materials that are very tangibly explored since they leave traces of all the more sociopolitical relations quite visibly. Instead of energy politics, just research illicit drug trades for instance....since these two 'industries' are #1 and #2 in global GNP. As for how they interrelate in parapolitical ways, there's that famous Ruppert article on Halliburton before 9-11:

Halliburton Corporation's Brown and Root is one of the major components of

[Lead story in the October 24, 2000 issue of "From The Wilderness"]
Michael C. Ruppert


FTW October 24, 2000 - The success of Bush Vice Presidential running mate Richard Cheney at leading Halliburton, Inc. to a five year $3.8 billion "pig-out" on federal contracts and taxpayer-insured loans is only a partial indicator of what may happen if the Bush ticket wins in two weeks. A closer look at available research, including an August 2, 2000 report by the Center for Public Integrity (CPI) at, suggests that drug money has played a role in the successes achieved by Halliburton under Cheney's tenure as CEO from 1995 to 2000. This is especially true for Halliburton's most famous subsidiary, heavy construction and oil giant, Brown and Root. A deeper look into history reveals that Brown and Root's past as well as the past of Dick Cheney himself, connect to the international drug trade on more than one occasion and in more than one way....

5/30/2007 11:03:00 PM  
Blogger ericswan said...

Mark..Your time machine links through the vortex going forword and backword reminds me of IC's comments a month or so back of the hawk that was on his living room rug and Richard's spooky thought of all the stars being replaced by UFO's.

My point here is that our powers of observation; our senses are really tuned into "parameters" of reality which are conditioned and difficult to alter without mind altering effects including drugs or vortex hyperspace energy. IC put out another example of this phenomenon when he talked a while back about something I experienced. I was out mountain climbing in the world heritage trilobyte beds and noticed a plant that looked alot like a trilobyte. It was like a transformation through the memory of water through millions of years from one carbon form to another. Hooray. Now I'm even confused.

Reich's early work with ozone and the Montauk experiment which ended with the Pheonix time travel meme has to tie in with Jung's archetypes. These recognizable forms that recur in the human psyche obviously have a timeline that has a beginning and an end. Inventing new memes will ultimately replace the icons and archetypes and that implies a timeline that is hidden or at least not "above the fold". Eureka.. There is a path to follow and the Word is God.

5/30/2007 11:06:00 PM  
Blogger CuriosityShop said...

I have been ashamed to post here, because truly I did not intend to be mean, and I am so sorry if that is how it was taken. So peace pipe is offered –

We seem to push each other’s buttons Shrub, and that really is not a bad thing. I have been reading the posts on here and find that you and I agree on many things. But so hard to communicate to another.

I think the longer people stay stuck in the 9/11 box the weaker they become. You lose your 3D vision. It is a never ending labyrinth of dark tunnels with blind ends. Now I probably lost most everybody there, but that’s ok. And Jeff, I mean no offense against your blog , it just seems to me that 9/11 is a house of mirrors. And so easy to get lost in it.

There is hidden within you a door that leads out. A PKD short story called “The Exit Door Leads In” spells it out literally. People live within a prison that they accept and help to create.

"All life is only a set of pictures in the brain, among which there is no difference betwixt those born of real things and those born of inward dreamings, and no cause to value the one above the other."
- H.P. Lovecraft

i take the idea of manifesting imagination literally. if we can imagine it, then it's actually existing right now - we are actually looking into the possible. if there are multiple universes with multiple potential realities, then what we actually visualize already exists. it's not a vacuum we are imagining. when we imagine and visualize, we are actually punching holes into this other realm to take a look at what is going on on the other side. if enough holes are punched (by enough central nervous systems), then that particular reality seeps through, eventually pouring out into our own realty and manifesting. it's the process of dissolving boundaries. things thought "impossible" are sealed concepts, until a few people dare to think otherwise. once you realize that it's reachable, more and more people join in, gathering critical mass, and making it happen. but it starts with one. one insane person who has a vision. networking accelerates this type of process. news is heard in a flash, ideas get checked and re-checked, compared, compiled, discussed, and implemented. the impossible things are happening more quickly because we hear and see about them more often and at greater speed than ever before. think about it. moore's law, cloning, instant communication in the noosphere, we can now teleport laser beams, what next? i'm waiting for real teleportation, immortality, and abolishing scarcity. those things are "impossible", right? - @Om* 6/17/02

A cinematic wonder -
Pan's Labyrinth exists only in the imagination of Ofelia -- which makes it something of an unusual fairy tale, since the only power the 'fairies' have to help her is the creativity of her own mind. The power of Ofelia is the power that each of us has, that is, the power to see the hideous and murderous world around us as a magical thing filled with beauty, mystery and enchantment. And inch by inch build a new universe. I rather think it shows how we make our unkind and brutal world into a heaven

It is often said that men are ruled by their imaginations; but it would be truer to say they are governed by the weakness of their imaginations.
Walter Bagehot (1826-77), English economist, critic. The English Constitution, ch. 2 (1867).

Recognize the Divine, then recognize the part of you that sees the Divine.

There is so much magic going on all around you, you only have to look. The 2 humpback whales Delta and Dawn made it to safety and how happy we are.
Delta Dawn, what's that flower you have on
Could it be a faded rose from days gone by
And did I hear you say he was a-meeting you here today
To take you to his mansion in the sky

I know I sound sappy, but I’m ok with that.

And Stuart Wilde ( I love how he sees outside any boxes)
An Awesome Journey

Globally, things will change. Right now, the world is run in secret by racist elitists that are cruel beyond words; they manipulate everything to their terrible ends. These are the modern black magicians—the closet Nazis, the racist elitist rulers hand-in-hand with the industrial-military machine. These people may not worship at a temple necessarily, though many do, but they are still initiates of the dark none-the-less. They use fear and the dark and their institutional power to dominate and milk humanity. They have utter disdain for the well-being of others. They are the pompous purveyors of the Grand Lies, fed to us by their media. And of course, they are beyond the law. They can do with us as they wish but that will all change.

These big families and groupings of the elite are fortresses of the ghouls’ power base; they can’t be easily wiped out. So they will be degraded and softened up over time. The ghouls are quick but they are anal and stupidly predictable. Yet the forces of the Fractal Queen, which is what we call the military part of the celestial armies, operate slowly, but they are clever beyond anything you can imagine. They will work to pull governments and the big families into a sucker’s trap, one that has been carefully prepared for them. It doesn’t matter if it takes years. These people will not escape, not even one of them. They are already trapped without realizing it as yet.

There is much about the celestial forces and their world that we don’t know but when they act to strip the ghouls away from a protected person or a protected system, let us say, a gang of slave traders in Gabon, then those individuals begin to see their shadow. It is their evil coming back at them that destroys them. They start to fight amongst each other and their shadow literally eats them. It is an evil that is now no longer hidden. Imagine a terrible monster suddenly let loose after years of captivity. It wants vengeance for its entrapment now that it is loose and free to operate, and the nearest thing is the human that created it, the human from which it came. The shadow is a real being, an identity in the global mind, not just a ‘collective’ of ideas in a person’s psychology. In the end, the dark will go crazy and destroy themselves. Or in some cases, the shadow of other humans rises up and kills them.

I finally see what it means when the book says, “The meek will inherit the earth.” They are all that is left after the arrogance falls. No one has to fight anymore, you just wait for the fat controllers and all the ones that think they are so chosen and special to tumble. Just stand back and watch the death of the global-ego, we are pallbearers at its funeral.

So that is the story, morning glory, in very simple terms––a thumbnail sketch of the first chapter, ‘how the beings arrived’. That was the war in heaven. How the war on earth pans out against the institutions and the black magicians will be on the nightly news.

© Stuart Wilde 2004

Movie Girl

5/31/2007 01:00:00 AM  
Blogger Sounder said...

This from Muddy Elephant, because it relates somehow to Movie Girls fine comment on Pan's Labyrinth.

"Suppose reality is a mirror and consciousness is vision.

What consciousness sees in the mirror is nothing other than its own image. It is not satisfied, however, with what it sees. It does not realize that what it is seeing is itself. It takes the mirror to be itself and undertakes to change the mirror. Consciousness stains itself with the blood and sweat of its efforts.

Yet there is no improvement. Its image remains quite the same.

Consciousness redoubles its efforts and continues to try to "fix" the mirror. Its vision becomes one-pointed and the reflection of itself becomes like an apparition, an illusion. Its work is the only thing that is real, the only thing that it can see. Yet the awareness of its reflection is a persistent, troubling memory and from time to time consciousness sees itself in the mirror.

Despite all of its best intentions and efforts the image remains hauntingly, lovingly, laughingly...

...the same."

5/31/2007 07:18:00 AM  
Blogger iridescent cuttlefish said...

Okay, ericswan, this one's for you. Normally you stay away from the trippy stuff (well, the really trippy stuff, anyway), but you've been leaving psychotropic breadcrumbs all over this floor, so dig in.

It's got a further link to an online chapter of Gerry Vassilatos' Lost Science, which is a cult classic--out of print, currently selling for $77 at Amazon, although this varies day to day. Personally, I love Lost Science (it's in the vein of Joe Farrell's books, but more generalized, going back to Goethe and the blazing ancients), even though I've only been able to read bits of it online.

Here's a list of links to it from that crazy guy, Tommy Cichanowski, who seems to have gotten exclusive permissions to quote it at length at his very unique
Tortoise Shell site. (I gave you some links to his organic gardening pages before, which are also somewhat out of this world):

Chapter 1 "Luminous World" Baron Karl von Reichenbach

Chapter 4
"Broadcast Power" — Nikola Tesla

Chapter 5 Ultra Microscopes and Cure Rays: Dr. R. Raymond Rife

Chapter 7 "Electric Flying Machines" — Thomas Townsend Brown

On a far scarier note (and, no, I've never figured out what that hawk wanted with me) you might also like this fat pdf:

N.U. CONGRUENCE: NEW UNIVERSE MANUFESTATIONS(sic)(?) ON EARTH, which contains the startling premise:

...cosmic ray blasts directed from an unknown origin in space
towards the South Pole and disrupting our global weather systems...

Btw, very nice construction, Sounder.

5/31/2007 02:42:00 PM  
Blogger Silverfox said...

Well IC...

Here is a another most unusual and eye-opening little tale to add to your ever expanding files that is currently unfolding around yet another one of those most serendipitous laboratory finds.

This one seems to indicate that whoever built the pyramids actually employed a little nano-technology along the way, though oddly enough, through far less mysterious, sophisticated, or outrageously expensive methods than we've normally come to associate with it.

There is, as it has turned out, something of a variety in the limestone blocks in the Great Pyramid as well as some of the others that has gone completely unrecognized, as has the lost ancient technique used to actually "manufacture" some of them essentially from scratch, so to speak...that is, up until now.

This is becoming very much "big news" in materials engineering circles which don't actually give a tinker's damn about any of the archeological implications, unless of course, there's something decidedly new that can be applied from it and there most assuredly is in this particular case.

The molecular analysis of some of the blocks has actually rendered a workable formula that can effectively replace Portland Cement, (which only lasts 200 years before turning into dust), with a dirt cheap 4,500 year old formula that has not only lasted those 4,500 years, it comes from completely natural sources that are quite abundant and readily available virtually all around the world!

That Portland Cement industry, incidentally, currently accounts for well over 8% of all the CO2 emissions on the planet not to mention being the most expensive ingedient involved in the making of modern concrete so there's going to be far more of a hubub over this before any of either the new or old dust surrounding this discovery settles.

All that CO2 comes from the tremendous heat that is needed to currently burn limestone and of course uses a similarly staggering amount of the world's limited energy supplies to do it.

That, of course is a far more significant issue these days than any of those huge heaps of stone or whatever they are on the plain of Giza and why it's very much worth keeping an eye on this one to see what develops.

5/31/2007 04:23:00 PM  
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