Friday, August 31, 2007

Friday, August 31


Miette's tear


Brockville's Grenville Christian College "has abruptly closed its doors amid allegations of sexual improprieties and cult practices." Former students of the residence school "paint a picture of a bizarre environment", including regular "breaking" sessions in which they were ordered from their beds in the middle of the night, and made to sit "in a dark room with a bright light shining on their face and accused repeatedly of being sinners by teachers and staff they couldn't see." ("I would feel physically ill and almost in a parallel existence, divorced from my body and mind, utterly frozen and in a state of shock.")

It sounds like the set-up to a joke, and it is: George Bush and Greg Palast visited the Gulf Coast two years after Katrina. Bush tells New Orleans, "We understand." Palast sees Blackwater "guys dressed like Ninjas" keep black residents from reentering their clean and dry public housing projects, and understands:

I wasn’t naïve. I had a good idea what this scam was all about: 89,000 poor and working class families stuck in Homeland Security’s trailer park gulag while their good homes were guarded against their return by mercenaries. Two decades ago, I worked for the Housing Authority of New Orleans. Even then, the plan was to evict poor folk out of this very valuable real estate. But it took the cover of a hurricane to do it.

Increasingly, there's analysis not too hard too find out there which demonstrates an appreciation that incompetence is the great, oversold attribute of the Cheney-Bush years. For instance, Rolling Stone's "Great Iraq Swindle":

It was an invasion of the federal budget, and no occupying force in history has ever been this efficient. George W. Bush's war in the Mesopotamian desert was an experiment of sorts, a crude first take at his vision of a fully privatized American government.... It's not so far-fetched to think that this is the way someone up there would like things run all over -- not just in Iraq but in Iowa, too....

What happened in Iraq went beyond inefficiency, beyond fraud even. This was about the business of government being corrupted by the profit motive to such an extraordinary degree that now we all have to wonder how we will ever be able to depend on the state to do its job in the future. If catastrophic failure is worth billions, where's the incentive to deliver success?


Add to this the tens of thousands of US weapons which have "disappeared" in Iraq (Robert Gates is "deeply troubled" by the reports), and Afghanistan's latest record opium harvest, and perhaps the pattern becomes too vivid to ignore without the most determined act of will. (The UNODC's Executive Director Antonio Maria Costa says "No other country in the world has ever had such a large amount of farmland used for illegal activity, beside China 100 years ago." It's not a very long stroke that connects the China Trade of one century with the Afghan Trade of another, but there's still considerable reluctance to draw the connection.)

I've been meaning to write about Ron Paul for a while, and still probably will, but if he's of interest or concern to you there's a good thread on the RI board you should read. And I think this comment by chlamor bears repeating:

It reminds me of that old game show, "Concentration". When only a few squares were revealed, it was hard to tell there even was a message there. As more became visible, it was possible to recognize a coded word here and there, but it was still difficult to tease out any meaning. It wasn't until most of the squares had been uncovered that the message was revealed.

By cleverly selecting which bits to reveal, Paul and his supporters presented snippets of code that seemed easy to interpret: anti-war (sane foreign policy), anti-neocon (anti-imperialism), etc. Then we turn over some more squares, "international banker" obsession, black=criminal, anti-public education, anti-separation of church and state, etc, that suggested a more sinister message. A detailed overview leaves no square unturned, revealing a hero of the Bircher/Patriot mold who consistently panders to his loyal base, including it's more racist fringes. Turns out this "straight talker" uses deliberately deceptive language to send one message to his base and another to the rest of us. This defender of the Constitution has some radical alterations in store for that "hallowed" document. This lover of liberty counts overt fascists among his most dedicated fans.

It's not that I wouldn't consider supporting a message candidate, I'm just not willing to provide even temporary, tactical support to one whose message makes me want to vomit.

260 Comments:

Blogger McHastur said...

Just wanted to say fantastic blog overall, been lurking here awhile now, busy reading older posts as well as newer, really great material worth perusing. Thanks for daring to make the connections and ask the questions few dare to do.

That being said, it would seem that the fallout from Katrina was about ethnic cleansing at home, perhaps more for voting redisctricting purposes than anything else (at least from my perspective), but it wouldn't surprise me if there wasn't something else very sinister going on as well. The privatization you mention may well be the tip of the proverbial iceberg insofar as neocon/neoliberal goals are concerned.

In the end, its really about neofeudalism more than anything else. The haves in their gated communities, protected and insulated inside their mausoleums of conspicuous greed and overconsumption, guarded by private armies against the teeming masses of have-nots, kept in check only by threat of force, all-seeing surveillance cameras and a million distractions ranging from cheap drugs to dumbed-down media content.

Good call on the Ron Paul crowd. Unfortunately, our choices for the highest office in the land are officially zero. There is no choice. Only sanctioned false dichotomies of left/right, liberal/conservative sock puppets who all serve the same corporate masters, and an outsider crytofascist in populist guise. Personally I like Kucinich, but realistically? My faith in the system is dead. I don't know what alternatives we have left but voting isn't one of them.

8/31/2007 02:05:00 PM  
Blogger passerby said...

I just read what you said about Ron Paul, and i have to say you miss the very point you made in the first half of what you wrote. Yes, he is conservative. But he is an honest conservative. He is one of the truly select few that have taken a morally based stand against the war in Iraq, for one thing. He was against it from the start, is against it now, and has never given any airtime to silly justifications or excuses. He might well blame blacks for crime (blacks are responsible for most recorded street crime, so he is just stating facts there), but it is folly, or at least jumping to conclusions, to make some kind of closet white supremicist of him on that basis.

If you do not like Paul, by all means go for Kucinich (who we might equally say opposes the right of people to own guns for their own defense). Who on the other side is also totally honest, even though we may not agree with all he says, either.

Can you see either of these men stealing another man's property, the way you just wrote about in New Orleans?

That's what really matters - there are levels of immorality they won't stoop to, levels the Bushes and Cheneys and Clintons dive far beneath, and rely on corrupt institutions to keep out of sight. If we want to be rid of them, we have to be willing to stand alongside people who we may not agree with, but who we share the same desire for freedom and fairness with.

Besides, if you want to know how "sanctioned" Paul and Kucinich are, look at how their parties treat them. Look at how recent polls on Republican debates have been skewed against Ron Paul, to the point of not even listing how many votes he got alongside other candidates. But also look at how he won those debates with their audience anyway. Kucinich i know less of, but any party that looks to Hillary Clinton as a front runner speaks a lot of good to his character when they refuse to promote him.

We will have won if this race comes down to Paul vs Kucinich, because at that point, it will be the people that can't lose. It could happen, too. Revolt against this administration and the system they sit at the public head of has never been higher. It is entirely possible that anti-Establishment voting may become so widespread that even electoral fraud can't hide it.

8/31/2007 03:03:00 PM  
Blogger Nicco Knight said...

As a long time reader, I must confess deep disappointment that Jeff (and some of his readership) must adhere to carefully constructed political correctness:

There are no powerful international bankers.

Welfare and Affirmative Action are sensible policies. The 95% of African Americans who support them are, therefore, sensible.

Among those who commit murder, all racial groups are equally represented.

I am still unsure whether you've all been extremely well-conditioned by the designers of the aforementioned thought strictures, or are actively working to enforce them on behalf of their proponents.

8/31/2007 03:09:00 PM  
Blogger Shrubageddon said...

Now Jeff has Balls. Stormfronters on the way.

8/31/2007 04:50:00 PM  
Blogger Nicco Knight said...

It has been a regular tactic of his Big Media detractors to try to associate Dr. Paul with various "loonies" to discredit him. Being a supporter myself, I have have met and interacted with many other strong supporters and I have yet to encounter white supremacists.

Glom on to whatever distorted angle you wish, but by closely following the Big Media script, this is what you are ultimately promoting: http://www.voanews.com/english/2007-08-31-voa44.cfm

8/31/2007 05:01:00 PM  
Blogger Brenda said...

The interesting thing about Gates is that he learned about those reports in the newspapers. The Secretary of Defense therefore is "out-of-the-loop". Quite extraordinary I'd say. I suspect that is because he is Papa Bush's man and George is acting like the petulant two year old he is.

8/31/2007 05:02:00 PM  
Blogger Josey Wales said...

Ron Paul is as far from 'fascism' as Hillary and Obama are from telling the truth! Come on, people, please. I agree with the other posters who have defended Ron. If he is sooo bad then why is he attacked or ignored at every turn by the very forces you profess to hate?
Anyone in the position of Ron Paul that has the guts to say we should get rid of the Federal Reserve, which is not 'Federal' nor a 'Reserve' should get every vote in this country, Right, Left or Center. The people who run and have run the Fed are some of the very people/forces this board exposes all the time. Wake up. He may not be perfect but who is? The reason people are supporting him from across the spectrum is because he believes in LIBERTY and that means you don't have to agree with everyone else or be PC about everything. If all you hand-wringers are afraid of liberty then perhaps you have more in common with the neocons, neolibs and the rest of the Skull and Bones bunch than you have with people who want to be free and to be left alone. You crybabies are playing right into the hands of the Elite. All they have to do is tell you that Ron Paul said something about some minority or another and you are ready to pitch him off the boat. Stop letting them divide us so easily. If someone is afraid of black crime, big deal! It is better than waking up to a dictatorship and being put in concentration camps if you step out of line. And before all you PC leftist types get all scarred, there is no way the Establishment is going to let him win. You can all go back to your warm little cages where all your little pet social engineering projects are safe and sound

8/31/2007 05:04:00 PM  
Blogger Syn Diesel said...

I see chlamor is hanging-on to some candandian socialist heels. "95% of blacks are criminals" wasn't written by Paul, nor is it even what assholes are saying it is. The "95%" refers to the other-than 5% with "sensible" politics as defined by the author. Collectivists ARE criminals. Thieves murders and frauds.

8/31/2007 07:07:00 PM  
Blogger Shrubageddon said...

Who the hell are these people? A record number of first time posters when Jeff says something about Ron Paul. Jeff, you do know how to bring it on....we have something in common, in that regard.

How many people supporting Paul refer to the dipshit Oligarchs who took control of this country as The Founding Fathers. That's all that needs to be said on the subject for anyone who looks at history objectively, if that's possible.

This system will not, and cannot produce Saviors. In fact, any system that matriculates a Savior os a flawed system.

8/31/2007 07:11:00 PM  
Blogger Shrubageddon said...

and George is acting like the petulant two year old he is.

Does it make any difference how George is acting? No, it doesn't. For someone who claims to be a devout rationalist, use your damn brain. The dipstick has no power....he's a front to an insidious cabal...one of many supporting an even greater cabal. The President of the U.S. is a meaningless figurehead...that's what makes this talk of Ron Paul so hilarious. It's pointless....but humorous, nonetheless.

"It's not what The Founding Father's intended." Give me a fuckin break!! The Founding Fathers?? They ain't my fuckin Fathers and they didn't found anything...they murdered and stole for what they have. They were no more enlightened than the Beast of the Bush over which they cliam superiority.

8/31/2007 07:20:00 PM  
Blogger Syn Diesel said...

Shrubageddon said...
Now Jeff has Balls. Stormfronters on the way.



Hey Shrub, you sayin' anyone who aint no loony socialist is a right-winger? ;-)


“I hate conservatives, but I really fucking hate liberals.” - Matt Stone

8/31/2007 07:26:00 PM  
Blogger Syn Diesel said...

Btw, can anybody here tell me why the John Birch Society seems to be such a strong meme for left-of-center interweb hipsters? It's almost as if it's a mind-programming that people can help resist even though Birchers are like some mythical boogeyman that no one has actually ever seen.

And I love the Stormfront reference. What's that called in propaganda?

8/31/2007 07:49:00 PM  
Blogger ericswan said...

Don't misunderestimate Mr. Bush. He may not write his own speeches but when he's on the page he's on the money.

8/31/2007 08:38:00 PM  
Blogger James Leroy Wilson said...

The Constitution isn't perfect, but it's better than what we have now.

8/31/2007 10:00:00 PM  
Blogger Josey Wales said...

Perhaps so-called first timers speak up because they are passionate.

I don't see any of the naysayers suggesting an alternative to using the ballot box to try to fix the problems. Deep down I know he won't get the nomination but I want to hope it can happen. And yes, I know the President can't do much in the system we are in now. But if he were elected the system would be forced to change in ways we can only imagine.

BTW, there are as many supporters who come from the Left that are supporting him as there are from the right.

8/31/2007 10:54:00 PM  
Blogger Heywood J. said...

The problem with Paul is not that he's a closet fascist, it's that he's an open libertarian crank. He'd privatize the Air Force (for starters) given half a chance. I'm sure the friendly folks at Blackwater would love nothing better, but America and the rest of the planet would be further down the road to ruin.

I support his poke at the windmill just for the statement of it; if he had any real chance, I'd be concerned.

It's nice to agree with Dr. Paul that George Bush sucks, but that's about all to agree on.

8/31/2007 10:57:00 PM  
Blogger Syn Diesel said...

Heywood J. said...
The problem with Paul is not that he's a closet fascist, it's that he's an open libertarian crank. He'd privatize the Air Force (for starters) given half a chance.



Give me a fucking break. If you're going to throw political shit around, atleast get your facts straight. Paul is a constitutional minarchist, not an anarcho-capitalist let alone a corporatist. You're obviously running on liberal democrat programming.

9/01/2007 01:19:00 AM  
Blogger Corwin said...

The thread in the forums says that some legitimate statements that have been made by either Paul or whoever wrote his newsletter were racist... They weren't, they were, again, legitimate.

Sure, there were terrible things about the Birchers and some people he's been associated with, but only because of human ignorance and stupidity, those associations were well minded and tried to be truthful and who else at such a time in human history was going to support or hold his same views on strict adherence to the constitution? I mean, come on, he had a point about Katrina, he wasn't upset about "his money" - it wasn't HIS money, it was money in general, being dished out to help people who are obviously in an area prone to what occurred, everyone agrees on the hazardous nature of living there, and really how foolish it is to do so and expect not to have the disasters it presents.

He has great, intelligent and wonderful points and plans of action on all these "controversial issues" and we can swallow easily what he's said, our governments should be smashed they are holding back true human potential and are statistically the most dangerous threat to humanity.

Anyone who disagrees with him and wants to keep the current sickness is evidence as to why we have these evils around. Maggots are around where there is rotting flesh and waste for them to thrive.

He's made it clear cut that he supports the Republic, not a democracy, that's not what is outlined in the constitution. These people need to do their homework.

I remember Jeff's posts about some stupid Canadian election and it got me to stop reading until I had to link someone on the Hosanna church issue and different topics he has covered somewhat tastefully...

He's not a fascist or a racist. He is going to end a lot of government programs designed to break up our lives and kill us. Sure, he's taking a lot of people off their governmentally induced coma's, but then they will wake up and realize why the programs were created in the first place, programs designed to break up the structure of black families by giving black women aid when there's not a man in the house - which historically brought the number of single black mothers up substantially - different programs that don't need to be around, money that could be going to more important matters, he's doing well.

The only thing we should be concerned about is the amount of faith in government that most people will have once he's president.

9/01/2007 03:07:00 AM  
Blogger Dr. Bombay said...

Shrub,
You said that the "Founding
Fathers" were no more enlightened
than Bush. That doesn't fly. As much as you may disagree with the methods
that were used by the people who
formed this country, (and yes I have
read A People's History Of The
United States) they were masters of
oration and the English language.
George Bush is...not.
And as far as their methods were
concerned, this wasn't a round of
golf and martinis in the clubhouse.
They took on the worlds biggest
superpower and kicked their ass
all the way back across the
Atlantic.
Now..regarding Chlamar comments
about Ron Paul..Lets take them one
at a time..Obsession with
"International Bankers"..code for
Anti-Semitic. Chlamar- Perhaps you
could call Aaron Russo and ask him
(he being of the Jewish populace)
if he thinks Ron Paul is
Anti-Semitic? If that's the case,
why is Ron Paul the ONLY sitting
politician willing to give an
interview to Aaron for his film
"America: From Freedom To Fascism"?
But you can't cause..fuck..Aarons
dead.Oh by the way Aaron supported
Dr. Paul's run for President.
Black=Criminal= Ron's a racist.
Just because someone points out
the truth ie: most of the crime in
urban areas is committed by minorities- does not make you a
racist. Dr. Paul has delivered
over 4000 babies in his medical
career. Were they all lily white?
I don't think so..Anti-public
Education.. If you had read or
listened to anything by Mr. Russo
you would know that he was told
by Nicholas Rockefeller that Public
Education was taken over by the
Feds in 1958 so it would be easier
to indoctrinate the youth of the US
with the propaganda it wished to
impart to them. And I hate to break it to all you feminists out there
but Gloria Steinem has admitted that MS. magazine was bankrolled
by the CIA.
Separation of Church and State..
This doesn't exist now so how can
you fault Ron Paul for it? What?!!
You haven't heard that the White
House is full of Born Again
Evangelicals? How do you think
Bush got elected? Maybe you haven't
heard that the Air Force Academy
in CO. is chock full of born agains. The guy who runs the joint
has told the Muslim community that
"My God is bigger than your God."
Ok.. now go back to the sandbox
and play nice General!
And Etc...Does that mean Abortion?
Let me ask you a question..Why are
women still getting pregnant who
shouldn't be? Christ! We have had the Pill for over 40 years now
and there are at least 50 other
forms of birth control out there
so..WTF? Dr. Paul is Pro-Life,
but has never said he would make
abortion illegal. He is against
the Govt. using our TAX dollars
to fund abortion and so am I. If
your 14 year old daughter gets
pregnant, you have failed as a
parent and perhaps you could work
a little overtime to pay for it.
Birchers/Patriots..The reason they
indentify with Dr. Paul's strict
adherence to the Constitution is
because they have been trying to
tell the rest of us for years that
the Federal Govt. is systematically
trying to strip us of our civil
rights. And you know what..they're
right!

9/01/2007 03:43:00 AM  
Blogger Dr. Bombay said...

Oh yeah...I almost forgot.. I am
the biggest fucking Liberal you
will probably ever meet. And I will
fight anyone hammer and tong - and
bong to for that matter -who tries to
strip me of my God Given right to
be one...!

"Live Free Or Die!"

9/01/2007 03:55:00 AM  
Blogger ericswan said...

Someday we'll have to discuss what it is the blogger community is, does or could do but in the mean time, you have to figure that we count for something. Let me pitch this scenario. These cats that run the big show are smarter than "we" are. Ron Paul has the highest rating of all the pundits in the Internet community based on easily accessible information like strawvotes, the number of "friends" at his "myspace" etc.

Ron Paul gets the least amount of press from mass media. But, when he is asked a question or is quoted on certain issues, he stands up for common sense. I remember him saying that "Roe vs. Wade" was a mistake in it's application across the country. He says abortion is a "regional" issue not a universal issue. At the time, that sounded like pro-life, but in retrospect as in Jeff's comments above, it may have been a racist policy veiled in doublespeak. He may have been saying that your poor, your huddled masses etc. your black people should go right ahead and have an abortion. We need some new terminology for these political fights. More along the lines of the media masters that we allow to manipulate our choices. There may only be two choices at the ballot box but there are at least a dozen ways of getting there including the "why vote" crowd, the "not sure" majority, the "left, right and centre" the "minority" the "blogger" the "establishment" the "blue collar". All neatly boxed up for a frontal lobotamy assault.

One thing should be perfectly clear by now. The system cannot be changed from the inside. No party hack is going to meddle in the system what brought him to the dance. That would take a billion dollars and your Bloombergs and Perot's aren't about to "tear down those walls".

9/01/2007 04:54:00 AM  
Blogger skunkboy said...

Dr. Bombay and Josey Wales...well said lads! It's time for people to get pasionate again. Wake up folks.

Skunkboy

9/01/2007 05:01:00 AM  
Blogger Dr. Bombay said...

Jeff...
You call that a "good thread"?
Evidently if your not gay and your
not from New York your a worthless
piece of crap. I wonder how many of
these people will be in lower
Manhattan on 9/11 to man the barricades and give TPTB hell?
"What?...You can't make it downtown
because you were dancing at the
Man Hole all night? Don't worry
honey..Alex Jones will bring
plenty of hicks!!"

9/01/2007 05:45:00 AM  
Blogger Shrubageddon said...

I can't thank Jeff enough for covering the Paul issue in this post....it proves what I've been arguing with IC about all this time. Sorry, IC, but we're fucked, and this is just one example of many as to why we will not remove that huge cock from our collective ass.

I believe in, and want an Egalitarian Social System similar to what what mnay of the Native American Indians had before the Founding Fathers, great chaps that they were, genocided them, but to believe that creating such a system wihtout the current system meeting its demise via a calamity, is delusional. We're too fragmented, for numerous reasons, and that fragmentation is a seemingly permanent barrier to any meaningful change.

Fuck Ron Paul, Fuck George Bush and Fuck The Founding Fathers. The Constitution is no more effective than the Ten Commandments. Do as I say...not as I do.

9/01/2007 10:47:00 AM  
Blogger iridescent cuttlefish said...

I'm thinking on that one, Shrub...okay, I'm done. Here's where the swindle in this RP business is hiding: he appears to be anti-status quo (abolishing the Rederal Reserve is about as far as you can go in that direction), but then the talk somehow reverts from that revolutionary stance to the stale & predictable old Welfare State debate ("take them out of their comas...")

As Janis sang it, and as I've ever tried to explain it, freedom really is just another word for nothing left to lose if there's no autonomy to make it "real". Paul is right--we don't need any fookin' banks, but is he willing to say that we don't need markets, corporations and (dare I?) money, the new black gold it runs on?

Seriously.

If we addressed the single greatest humanitarian crisis in the world--the lack of adequate shelter that directly affects half the world's population (that's right, 3,000,000,000 souls)--by tearing down the hovels, the shacks, the Soviet-era apartment blocks and the inner cities from Sao Paolo to Chicago and replaced them with houses that require no maintenance, produce more energy & water than they consume and are part of the earth's ecosystems as opposed to a drain on them...would it matter anymore that it doesn't matter whether a Republican or a Democrat is squatting in the White Shithouse of the Empire?

See, all those folks off the Grid means the economic house of cards collapses--and good riddance!--which means that all those poor folks who just became self-sufficient are suddenly a lot richer than all those former slavemasters who can't even get the elevators to take them out of their ghost towers in the former financial district or the gates of their McMansions to open...

Without greenbacks or (at least gold bars) to pay them, the Blackwater mercenaries wouldn't stand by their man, either. Since regular folks would now be safer against the depredations of the worldkillers than they ever were before, it wouldn't even be the Mad Max scenario that the Peak Oilers were paid to scare us with all these years...

Oil? We don't need no stinkin'...

O' course, Mr. Paul most certainly hasn't expressed any interest in addressing this most pressing humanitarian crisis, other than setting all those poor folks "free," so we're not really sure how the Powers That Still Be would respond to either his election (as virtual an uncertainty as the nature of democracy in the West) or to their own imminent demise in the face of the actual liberation of the poor folks if we did rebuild the world, one hovel at a time...but these hypotheticals are endlessly amusing, aren't they?

9/01/2007 02:20:00 PM  
Blogger Shrubageddon said...

IC,

I just got done watching Waco: Rules of Engagement, and I have to say, you attempt your plan, and what happened to Koresh and The Branch Davidians will look like a Sunday Picnic.

9/01/2007 03:37:00 PM  
Blogger et in Arcadia ego Eve said...

Conservative and Liberal Dittos Dr. Bombay

I "harbor" a great deal of resentment toward Gloria Steinem.

And Freemasons or not, the founding fathers would probably know how to properly pronounce the name of massively destructive weaponry cape-able of wiping out an entire continent. I'm like Bush, I got a thang for nukular weapons.

Sic Semper Tyrannis

9/01/2007 08:14:00 PM  
Blogger Syn Diesel said...

IC, I posted these links before. Did you happen to catch them? And do you have any forums related to so-called Liberation Technologies where you hang out?

Mini-arcologies:
http://ecosyn.us/
http://ecosyn.us/Interesting/
http://ecosyn.us/ecocity/Proposal/proposal1.html
http://ecosyn.us/ecocity/Palaces/Water_and_Sewer/Water_Sewer.html
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Palaces4People/

Make-Your-Own Solar Electricity with... Solar Electricity:
http://h2-pv.us/phpbb/
http://h2-pv.us/H2/H2-PV_Breeders.html
http://h2-pv.us/H2-PV.html

9/01/2007 09:43:00 PM  
Blogger Josey Wales said...

Thanks, Skunkboy.
Some of you peolpe just don't get it or you don't want to get it. If the USA minded its own business and got rid of the financial vultures like the Fed and the rest of the leeches in New York banking, then the people in the Third World would have a much better chance of getting shelter and food.
Read "Century of War - Anglo American Oil Politics" by William Engdahl.
Ron Paul and a pre-Wilsonian foreign policy by the US is the best way to begin the change to a much more humane and improving country and world.

9/01/2007 10:12:00 PM  
Blogger messianicdruid said...

Well Jeff, it looks like you have your opportunity to write about Ron Paul.

I must say, after over a year of reading here, I am disappointed in you smart folks by being so easily led astray by a shill {at best} or a fool {at worst}.

Why would you expect a 71 year old man to solve the whole world's problems? Ron Paul cannot even solve all of your probelms. He cannot even solve most of your problems.

All he can do as President is refuse to enforce unconstitutional laws. That is it. His record at voting to enforce the constitution is flawless, which cannot be said about you or any of your so-called leaders.

The only two things that all Americans can unite on is Liberty and the Constitution. This will take care of enough of the problems so that the States, Counties, Cities, Towns, Villages, Families and Individuals can deal with their own.

RP has the guts to put his life on the line for America while you allow or assist in pinning used-toilet-paper-corsages on him. If you continue being lead onto every rabbit trail, non-issue ans sinking ship that THEY can conger up, you are unworthy of him and will get what you deserve.

9/01/2007 11:26:00 PM  
Blogger tov art said...

please, let's take a break from republicans for a while.

9/01/2007 11:40:00 PM  
Blogger retank said...

"Be careful not to touch the walls, there's a brand new coat of paint."

Lily,Rosemary and the Jack of Hearts.

9/02/2007 02:58:00 AM  
Blogger the author said...

Jeff:

Jeez ... here we go again with the dark and paranoid musings and conspiratorial code words ... Bircher... Patriot ... ooh, I'm petrified. Jeff, do you actually know any Birchers? Any members of the Patriot movement? Any Ron Paul supporters?

Some days you are so thoughtful and incisive, and other days you are merely parroting the old lefty line, which also happens to be the Establishment/Oligarchy/PTB line, about the bogeymen hiding in the dark shadows of the "extreme right." How about some original thought on this?

The "racist" smear has been debunked. A single unapproved article by a wayward editor, twenty-two years ago, who was since disowned and thoroughly repudiated by Paul, is all the smear artists have been able to dig up. As I said to some old-line, hardline, hidebound lefty on another forum I frequent, the equation of "patriot" with "racist" is like the equation of "leftist" with "Stalinist." It's absurd, it's vile, it's shameful, and it's a discredit to you as a supposed thinking man.

-- africkinamerican -- black, pround, and a Ron Paul supporter

9/02/2007 04:24:00 AM  
Blogger the author said...

As I've commented repeatedly right here, the "left/right" distinction has had its day and more and more people are seeing how shopworn, how obsolete it really is. It hasn't "outlived its usefulness" because it never really had any -- that is, not for us. It has been very useful for the PTB, to keep us divided even on the huge, essential issues that everyone ought to be united on. Left and Right are PTB inventions and anyone who continues to subscribe to them is part of the problem.

9/02/2007 04:31:00 AM  
Blogger Dr. Bombay said...

Tov Art,
Yeah, your right. Lets give
it a rest with the Repubs.. What
say we talk about how the Democrats
have been bending over and getting
"plooked" (thanks F.Z.!) by Dubya
ever since last years elections...?

Eve,SkunkBoy..
Thank you for your kind
words...

9/02/2007 04:39:00 AM  
Blogger the author said...

And as somebody else pointed out, "lefty" favorite Kucinich opposes the right to self-defense. As we all know, all fascists oppose the right to citizen self-defense: the first thing they do is disarm the populace. Kucinich = fascist!

Warped logic can make anybody into a villain.

Now the fact is, from observing Kucinich for awhile, I actually think the guy has a lot of courage and personal integrity. (As well as a really hot wife.) I just think he's sincerely wrong on some of his issues. But if I play around with the same logical fallacies you're relying on (as do large swaths of the politically correct "left"), it's quite easy to turn him into a full-blown Nazi. That ought to suffice to show you why you should trade in the loaded code words and stinkin' thinkin' for honest vocabulary and clear, cogent argument. Don't take the low road of innuendo and name-calling.

By the way, how did Kucinich meet his hot, redheaded British wife? Why, he was speaking at a conference of the American Monetary Institute, for which she was working. That's another strike against Kucinich, since I -- an evil "right-wing" Ron Paul supporter, happen to support the goals of AMI, which -- uh-oh, hide under the bed! -- champions very similar views on money and banking to those of the John Birchers! More proof of Kucinich's secret Nazi ties!

--africkinamerican

9/02/2007 05:02:00 AM  
Blogger Brenda said...

It's always fun to watch an idiot wrestle himself to the ground with his own words.

The entertainment never ceases with you does it?

9/02/2007 05:25:00 AM  
Blogger Shrubageddon said...

Okay....you guys have convinced me. Ron Paul for President...he gets my vote. I can't wait to return to the days of Deadwood. Just think guys....and Eve. Under the auspices of Ron Paul, soon you will be able to rape any woman you like without some bureacratic, politically correct Justice System to interfere. I'm sure just the thought of it makes you moist, doesn't it Eve?

And for the record, Bombay, I said Beasts in the Bush, and believe it, or not, the pun was not intended. If you read Zinn's A People's History, and can still make the comments you did about kicking England's ass back across the Atlantic, why not just put a Rebel Flag on the back of your pick-up? I'm flabberghasted that you can say that after reading that book....flabberghasted, and I in no way want to be associated with anyone who holds such views after being presented knowledge to the contrary. That is willful ignorance, and that is yet another reason I believe nothing will change, IC. Do you really think the Libertarians around here, and there are many, will subscribe to your way of thinking? They won't. They are selfish Individualists (or so they think they are Individualists, when in fact they are Idealogical Followers like all the rest) who eschew Community. It's every man for himself in their view, and we both know where that will quickly end up if allowed to manifest.....Deadwood.

9/02/2007 11:01:00 AM  
Blogger surrender said...

SHRUB:

You wrote:
"Does it make any difference how George is acting? No, it doesn't. For someone who claims to be a devout rationalist, use your damn brain. The dipstick has no power....he's a front to an insidious cabal...one of many supporting an even greater cabal. The President of the U.S. is a meaningless figurehead...that's what makes this talk of Ron Paul so hilarious. It's pointless....but humorous, nonetheless."

THIS truth is WHAT we should all be "waking up" to. It doesn't matter who the fuck is the next president or the current president. Putting our faith in a future under the delusion that ONE person can change the way we see our lives being inmpacted everyday by the agenda of the Cabal. We still really have NO IDEA of the power of this force whose poison is spreading to the far corners of the world.

I do not know if it can happen but I believe it is time for us to take charge of our lives as best we can. Some of us have evolved beyond this illusion that any kind of government will ever give a shit about individual well-being or represent the WILL OF THE PEOPLE.

I do not find it humorous that people are still willing to go down the same old path of electing a "person" who they think can really "bring us out of the darkness and make things better".

I live in a country where there is no working government or institutions that represent the needs of the people or its environment. What is taking place now is a movement of grass-roots groups who understand the the government will NEVER pull itself out of the corruption spiral or implement any programs that will eradicate 42% malnutrition among its children or take steps to reverse the deforestation that has left less than 1% tree coverage. The people are slowly getting it. And realize that they must take responsibilty for the current state of affairs as individuals and stop counting on the government to save their asses.

6 months ago I met with the Chief Finacial Officer of the US Emabassy in Haiti, who is also the Head of CIA in Haiti.

He stated two things: "The US will NEVER give money for education or the environment" and

"we have NEVER interferred with the political system in this country, we just want Haiti to succeed" ( remember, they took out the SAME president TWICE )

Now the country has been occupied by UN forces that have attacked the slums and killed hundreds of innocent people.

My Point,
Ron Paul, Hillary Clinton, or whoever, will NEVER be able to make any real difference in what has been put in motion by the BLOOD SUCKERS who have the power to take life and promote death and destruction on the planet.

Only when enough evolved souls recognize the Source of TRUE POWER and live without
FEAR..............

Shrub, I really get your point of view and now WHAT????

PS. I read somewhere that Georgie has been cloned at least 5 times so it really doesn't matter "who" is the "decider". It is who decides who the next "decider" will be.

ps ps Shrub you really do have balls.

JEFF:

I am truly amazed by your rigorous intuition, no more than ever. Thank you.

9/02/2007 11:54:00 AM  
Blogger surrender said...

"We are the most prosperous nation in the world, the most powerful and we have brought more freedom to more people in the history of the world and been a beacon to all freedom seeking people around the world for a couple hundred years now, and we are going to stay that way," he said. "We are going to stay strong as a nation and strong as a party." quote Fred Thompson

Any American that can say that in these times could NEVER represent me.

Get ready guys! it ain't gonna get any better if we continue to believe this most atrocious of lies. This nation is not strong, it is brutal.

9/02/2007 12:09:00 PM  
Blogger Sounder said...

IC said;

"If we addressed the single greatest humanitarian crisis in the world--the lack of adequate shelter..." --We will first have reshaped our consciousness so that value is found in different places than where we find it today.

Then;
"See, all those folks off the Grid means the economic house of cards collapses"

One hovel at a time will require quite some time before it affects larger economic structures.
Different expressions within consciousness may get these houses built, but a dream to 'grant autonomy' to the masses, is not something anyone can do. Hell I cannot get off the Grid, let alone get others off the Grid. I can however try to have design influence on the ‘grid’ by promoting ideas like; consciousness precedes being. If consciousness is in a govt. (religous, scientism) induced coma (prescribed expressions of being) there is very little self-governance, is there? Ron Paul is the only politician that begins to have a handle on this.

It’s funny IC; you associate autonomy, in the self-governance sense I’m assuming, as a ticket to get off the Grid. Ron Paul and his ilk also value autonomy, maybe as a way to learn to live within proper ethical means. I think it’s the Kantian viewpoint that autonomy involves being independent from coercion in order to have a basis for ethical decision making. Yet it may be the case that no one is or can even be autonomous, as we co-create our experience and each other. Rather we are social beings, habituated to attaching (mis) value to objects, an inherently ‘taking’ venture, instead of focusing on the subject, (the mind, or ego, that thinks or feels), relations and correspondences, where we create the real web of understanding.

I imagine a day when value is focused on the subject/object interface. Where the implicate and the explicate meet. We need to reach further up the causal chain if we are going to pull ourselves out of this hole. This revaluing will expose the bankrupt nature of current forms and their uses. "Social Engineering" (and PC conformities) qualifies here as bankrupt forms, as they protect a corrupt intellectual class trying to define proper expressions of being for the masses.

On the Code bit; most people can only ‘hear’ another person through the filter of their own pretences, so the code is more likely on the receiving end rather than the sending end in any case.

And shrub, excellent example of pandering to the pretences of our host. We can only be happy that your mind seems so transparent as to make your divisive propaganda efforts to be worthless.

9/02/2007 01:28:00 PM  
Blogger iridescent cuttlefish said...

Shrub,

I'm not really afraid of Waco happening at the project site--the differences between us & them are just too profound for any such theater. A short list of those would include:

~~it's all going to be filmed (for documentary & seminar use), so there won't be any "surprises"

~~it's completely open, meaning that anyone can come by and watch (or help!)

~~it's not a cult, religion, or some sort of cultural subset. I've got yuppie architects and retired working folks who are as interested as the 19 year-olds and the skinny musicians who don't know which is the business end of a hammer.

The biggest thing going for us is openness and honesty. The power structure running the world runs on opposite principles--secrecy, collusion, fear and violence. They do have things to hide.

Here in Wisconsin, we've got this brilliant Trickster who was well-known in the original circle of Yippies (before they went into hiding, like Abbie Hoffman, turned into stock marketeers like Jerry Rubin, or otherwise faded away) named Ben Masel. Ben is a perennial candidate for governor, very smart guy, and the only "politician" I ever heard of who had the conviction of his principles to use for his campaign poster a picture of himself naked with the legend:

Ben Masel...the candidate with nothing to hide!

Ben, unlike the other Yippies, is still very active, most notably with the Free The Weed movement, but he also keeps running for public office and performing his version of street theater, as well as keeping a diary over at the mainstream DialyKos, even reaching out to demagogues like my friendly nemesis, David Brin, who's got a half-way interesting, but ultimately futile screed called THE OSTRICH PAPERS: It Will Take ALL Decent Citizens to Save America running right now.

My point in saying this is that the message and the plan are self-contained, self-explanatory and, if the truth "got out," entirely self-evident. (Unlike the rather cynical use of that phrase used by Shrub's Founding Fathers--sorry, Dr. Bombay; as much as I admire what Jefferson wrote, his actions as president give the lie to his philosophy. See Jefferson & Haiti on this one...no need to drag poor Sally Hemmings into it.)

What we're seeing here, and around the world for that matter, is the greatest act of "see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil" that's ever been perpetuated: literally half the world is homeless, hopeless and starving, while a tiny percentage of the world's population directly owns 52% of the earth and its assets (358 families, to be exact, and without getting into any magical bloodlines obfuscation), and the other half, the ones who aren't exactly starving but also don't share the lifestyles of the rich & famous, actively pretend either that it's not happening or that there's nothing we can do about it.

I haven't included folks like "us" in that breakdown because we don't fit into those categories very neatly and, statistically speaking, I'm not sure we have achieved any discernible mass yet (although the latency of that critical mass is becoming roughly analogous to the eighth month of your typical pregnancy). We're still arguing the case, at least. Most of us are not locked into any particular political ideology and are willing to consider other viewpoints. More importantly, we're cynical enough to doubt the integrity of any "ism" (Mr. Hoffman once said, "All 'isms' should be 'wasms.'")

I am willing to consider Syn's libertarian-"ism" (I've said that I always admired RAW's strain, as well as Ken MacLeod's), but if the "solution" or remedy for our ills is purely political, then it can't accomplish the sea change that's necessary. Jeff is rightfully wary of populist leaders, and I am too, but for very different reasons.

If we were honest enough to admit into our discussions the naked facts of the utter misery of half the planet, and then to set aside our politics long enough to talk about why this should be so--that so many have so little while so few control so much--then we would be ready to consider radically different models and amazingly obvious solutions. When asked about fighting the PTB, Bucky Fuller laid out the blueprint I'm following:

"You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete."

This is not voting for a Libertarian instead of one of the known fascists, this is not "changing the system from within" (whatever the hell that is supposed to mean); this means going outside the current political, economic and social structures that are specifically designed to keep us at each other's throats while the bandits in the limos make off with the earth's bounty.

I'm not saying this is the only way, or even that it's for everyone--here's a nice little story about how to defeat Nazis by laughing at them--what I am trying to illustrate is that the entire existing structure of human affairs rests on the the houses in which we live. Everything else follows from that: the manipulation of scarcity, the wasteful consumption of natural resources & resultant pollution, etc, etc, and the divisions which keep us apart.

If we organized civilian construction brigades and sent them out to teach people in both the "first" and "third" worlds how to build houses which freed them from these cycles and structures, then we will have accomplished Bucky's dream: we will have changed the world by changing its thinking.

Words alone (obviously) won't suffice; but if we build it, they will come (around). If you show no fear when the right awful bastards come to shoot you down, your non-violence will disarm them (as long as the cameras are rolling, of course), since that is another Bucky model in itself.

Death to the tyrants! (By ignoring them...)

9/02/2007 01:30:00 PM  
Blogger iridescent cuttlefish said...

Hell I cannot get off the Grid

Yes, you can Sounder. I don't argue with the validity of your pursuits--I agree with them--and I didn't mention the importance of community here because I've talked about it recently at enough length, but the most basic fact is that you can achieve autonomy through design.

Call these guys out to your neighborhood. For very little money you can be living off the grid next week. Ask ericswan how to set up community gardens, or contact Kitchen Gardens. Even better, once you've got your little community functioning, use your skills and your knowledge to teach others how to do this.

Beyond food, water & shelter, you're going to need some services--chiefly medical and educational--and some manufactured goods, such as clothing, tools, etc., but that's the next step in the intentional community. We can do all these things without the Grid and we can do it better. The market is slavery; the community is sanctuary.

9/02/2007 01:46:00 PM  
Blogger ericswan said...

Mainstream ignores us and them for the reason that a plurality of opinion leads to the realization that we all must die for the future to have a ghost of a chance. I doubt the lessons learned here will see the future of this planet. We aren't even specks of dirt in this unfolding. We are compost. Fire, Air, Water and Earth just DNA waiting for another shot at reformulation. The planet is due for some quality time.

9/02/2007 02:31:00 PM  
Blogger Dr. Bombay said...

Shrub,
First off..you were wrong when
you made the statement that the
Founding Fathers ie: Jefferson,
Washington, Franklin, Adams etc.
were responsible for the "genocide"
of the Native American Indians.
Most of the Native Americans in the
Eastern part of the continent were
wiped out in the 1600's and early
1700's. And the plains and western
tribes not until the 1800's. The
Spanish were responsible for
killing most of the indigenous
peoples of the Americas.
Furthermore, just because I have
read Zinn's book A people's history
etc. I am not being "willfully
ignorant" in disregarding the
lessons to be learned from that
excellent work. You have to look
at history in the context of the
times that those people were living
in. We abhor their policies, as we
should, looking back in hindsight.
But as they say..hindsight is 20/20. And do you really believe
that they were unaware that the
system that they were living in
benefited a few at the expense of
the many? Of course they were aware
of it. And that's why they decided
to do something about it. The
Constitution isn't perfect. What
is? All it is is a blueprint,
a set of codes and conduct. Which
we can also change if it doesn't
fit our needs. But when it is
subverted it is up to us do
something about it. There have been
more than a few comments stating
that one man can't change anything,
but the the truth is change has
always started with one man with
a great idea or vision. The trick
is to enlist others to follow.
Everything that the Empire known
as the United States of America
does is financed through OUR tax
dollars. If you don't like the
policies of the US then why do
you meekly hand over 30% percent
of everything you earn to them?
Where is "The Balls" in that?
Abolish the IRS, as Dr. Paul
suggests ,and you begin to dismantle the empire. Continue to
fund it at you own peril. And yes,
why not put the "Stars and Bars"
in the rear window of my pickup?
It will look great alongside my
pot leaf, my Grateful Dead dancing
bears, my NRA sticker, my POW/MIA
Flag, my Peace sign and my
swastika. What? You didn't know
that the swastika is an ancient
mystical Hindu symbol? Well I gotta
run.. I have some old friends
coming over for dinner.
Narragansett Indians as a matter
of fact. (I live in Rhode Island).
We love to sit around, have a few
martinis and talk about how rich
the Indian tribes are getting from
the money that that they take in
from the casino's. So Shrub,
the Indians may have lost the battle, but they are certainly
winning the "war".

"No..no don't try to get
yourself elected,
If you do you'd better
learn how to duck your head.."

9/02/2007 03:11:00 PM  
Blogger Syn Diesel said...

Shrubageddon said...

"Okay....you guys have convinced me. Ron Paul for President...he gets my vote. I can't wait to return to the days of Deadwood. Just think guys....and Eve. Under the auspices of Ron Paul, soon you will be able to rape any woman you like without some bureacratic, politically correct Justice System to interfere. I'm sure just the thought of it makes you moist, doesn't it Eve?"


Wow Shrub, you are seriously fucking deluded. A textbook case of socialist brainwashing. Try reading up on some freemarket economics books rather than so many faeriefarts and UFO conspiracy porn mags.

9/02/2007 03:43:00 PM  
Blogger Sounder said...

Thing is IC, my fathers ambition was always to move to the country, then we would learn to really live. We went whole hog, well everything but the pigs. As with most people, disappointment followed the realization that realities persistent image does not match up with the ideal. So while I still follow and enjoy a low impact ethic, I know better than to think I can get a divorce from “the Grid”. With that said, I will still try to add my bits to the ongoing reprogramming of this "Grid”. Oneday we will learn of our creative potentials and as we learn responsibility, the control grid will fade to the background. In effect the change does come from inside, not from inside politics of course, but from inside the deep structure of reality.

9/02/2007 04:09:00 PM  
Blogger Shrubageddon said...

Bombay....for you, but by all means, believe what you like.

Here's the link.


The Myth of American Democracy

The legend of American democracy is the second element in the two pronged mythological facade which has become a part of American historical records and a bulwark of its institutions of academia and mis-education.

In Merriam Webster’s dictionary, a democracy is defined as a government by the people; especially rule by the majority, and as government in which the supreme power is held by the people.

Of course, these descriptions have never applied to the United States of America and this is true as much today as it was when the government was formulated in the 1770's and 1780's. In fact, the issuance of the Declaration of Independence, the advent of the Revolutionary War and the subsequent drafting of the United States Constitution, were essentially the throes and ramifications of one group of white aristocrats (the Americans) seeking independence or autonomy from another group of wealthy whites (the British). This conflict for the spoils of colonial rule was fought at the expense of African and indigenous people who were used as pawns and cannon fodder in the conflagration to control land, wealth, and resources.

It is common knowledge that blacks and natives were not included in the lofty vision for the new republic, but poor whites and women were also excluded or marginalized from the noble sounding principles espoused in the Declaration of Independence and in the United States Constitution and they were not allowed to vote or seek public office.

In the decades leading up to the Declaration of Independence there were numerous rebellions by African slaves, Native Americans and poor white laborers.

There was also a rising fear of the consequences if these oppressed groups were to join forces and attack the designers and facilitators of their oppression, exploitation, and enslavement. This dread led to a concerted effort among the wealthy elite to fabricate a national/racial identity that would become known as the United States of America and which would stand as a symbol of a codified white supremacy. The new nation would sharpen the lines of division between poor whites, Africans, and the indigenous people, while inducing empathy and racial solidarity between poor whites and wealthy white property owners. Howard Zinn gives an overview in his remarkable book, A People’s History of the United States:

Around 1776, certain important people in the English colonies made a discovery that would prove enormously useful for the next two hundred years. They found that by creating a nation, a symbol, a legal entity called the United States, they could take over land, profits, and political power from favorites of the British Empire. In the process, they could hold back a number of political rebellions and create a consensus of popular support for the rule of a new, privileged leadership. When we look at the American Revolution this way, it was a work of genius, and the Founding Fathers deserve the awed tribute they have received over the centuries. They created the most effective system of national control devised in modern times, and showed future generations of leaders the advantage of combining paternalism with command.[3]

Thus the so-called revolution was not a revolution at all, for the encroachment of slavery, oppression and classism were merely refurbished and presented in different nationalistic package. It is a nationalism deeply rooted in the dementia of white superiority and the white right to rule and one that allows even the most pathetic and downtrodden whites festering in the quagmire of poverty to feel that they are, nevertheless, superior to people of color simply because they are white and therefore "inherently superior."

The "Founding Fathers"

The American founding fathers were all wealthy land and property owners and many of them, particularly George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, and James Madison were also slave owners. Although it has been explained by apologists that they were merely caught up in the historical forces and traditions of the time, there is an abundance evidence to support the view that they were avid racists who theorized and implemented doctrines of white supremacy, exhibited callous disregard for the human rights of African and indigenous people, and provided ammunition for subsequent generations of American and European racists and the ideologies for institutions of racism and oppression. A stratagem so pervasive and insidious that it prompted famed scholar W.E B. Dubois to describe as a "...system of bargaining, truckling, and compromising with a moral, political and economic monstrosity." [4]

Dubois could have been well been describing the conduct of the founders of America and the framers of the U.S. Constitution, for although George Washington and Thomas Jefferson occasionally paid lip service to the principles of emancipation and the abolishment of slavery they, nevertheless, retained an unshakable belief in both the doctrine and the implementation of white supremacy.

Since George Washington and Thomas Jefferson are synonymous with the establishment of the United States and the mythic traditions of the founding fathers, it is important to briefly examine their lives in the light of their words, actions, and sentiments as they applied to people of color.

At age 16, George Washington became a surveyor for a wealthy Englishman, named Fairfax. From his vantage point of witnessing the scandalous means with which Fairfax acquired his five million acres, he quickly devised his own schemes to steal land from the Natives. Later when Washington fought on the side of the British against the indigenous people in the "French and Indian War" he was rewarded with thousands of acres of "Indian" land on the south bank of the Ohio River. Washington would simply venture into large stretches of "Indian’ land, scrutinize it for what he perceived as the most valuable and desirable areas, and seize it by ridding it off its Native population utilizing whatever means available, fair or foul.

In 1763, the British monarchy issued a proclamation which prohibited white settlers and land speculators from going west of the Allegheny mountains and ordered that white settlers who were already there "remove themselves." However, with the inception of the American Revolution all bets were off, which afforded Washington the opportunity to rob the Natives of their lands, their wealth, and (in some instances) their very lives.

At the time of Washington’s death in 1799, he owned 40,000 acres of land that he had plundered from the indigenous peoples, and 317 Africans that he had forced into perpetual bondage. We get an account, in Washington’s own words, of how he dealt with the Native people, simply because he looked upon them as inferior beings who stood in the way of his land acquisitions and his grandiose vision of white dominance:

"The expedition you are appointed to command is to be directed against the hostile tribes of the Six Nations of Indians with their associates and adherents. The immediate objective is their total destruction and devastation and the capture of as many persons of every age and sex as possible. It will be essential to ruin their crops now on the ground, and prevent their planting more...Parties should be detached to lay waste all (Indian) settlements around...that the country may not be merely overrun, but destroyed."[5]

Thomas Jefferson owes his prominence, in large part, to the hundreds of Africans he enslaved who afforded him the prestige, the wealth, and the leisure to pen such documents as the Declaration of Independence and to participate in the framing of the US Constitution.

Jefferson’s professed ideals of human dignity, liberty and equality did not include Blacks for he was a life long slave holder and he often referred to Black people in his letters to his associates in Europe as lazy, slow, unable to reason, lacking in imagination, and unsightly in appearance.

These words of Jefferson indicate the most blatant disregard and ingratitude for his African slaves, for what would Jefferson had attained if it were not for his parasitical exploitation of the labor, the skill, and the ingenuity of the over 200 Black people whom he had reduced to chattel and stripped of their humanity? And whom he did not see fit to free (not even one) right up until the day he died.

Even the lauded Constitution that he helped to compose regarded Africans as only three-fifths of a person and allowed the floodgates of slavery and Euro-American greed and viciousness to remain staunchly open.[6]

Conclusion

I am certain that there are those who will read this article and seek to apologize, to justify, and to minimize the ideology and the practices of those early founders of what would became known as the United States of America. Some will claim that the Puritans, the signers of the Declaration of Independence and the framers of the Constitution, were men who were merely acting according to the climate of their times. Others will point out that men like Washington and Jefferson were reluctant slave owners who wrestled with their conscience and were contented with the belief that slavery was sick and, thus, would eventually die a slow and natural death. Yet there is an abundance of evidence, either through their own words, through the eyewitness accounts of their contemporaries, or through their recorded actions, which indicate that these men were not simply reacting to a system of incredible oppression that they inherited, but were the initiators of their own visions of whit! e dominance, white supremacy and the calculated murder and subjugation of dark skinned peoples. The fact is it cannot be creditably explained away how Washington commanded forces that systematically wiped out Native Americans and robbed them of millions of acres of their land for his own enrichment and the aggrandizement of white people. And it cannot be readily justified how Jefferson (while President of the United States) gave the green light to Andrew Jackson (the notorious Indian killer) to search out and to destroy Native Americans (men, women, and children) and to confiscate and to annex their lands. Neither should it be over looked that these men, these so-called founding fathers, were in a position to curtail or to alleviate the incredibly brutal, savage, and unjust system of chattel slavery, genocide, and wholesale thievery; both on a personal level and in their influential capacity as stalwarts of American public life and as occupiers of the highest government office. Yet, on a personal level, they did nothing or next to nothing; and on a public level they spent their energies contributing to the madness, the hypocrisy, and the cruelty of their time.

I hope that this article will influence those who are sincere and earnest to re-examine long held beliefs, and to seek out the truths behind the myths of American democracy and the struggle for human dignity, human equality, and human rights. Perhaps, if we can honestly look at where we came from, we can more clearly see in what direction we need to go.

Notes and References:

[1]. Paul R. Griffin, "Seeds of Racism in the Soul of America" Sourcebooks, Inc.
Naperville Ill.(2000) P. 17, 18


[2]. Ibin

[3]. Howard Zinn, "A People’s History of the United States" HarperCollins Publishers. New York, NY (2000) p. 59

[4]. W.E.B. Dubois {24,99}, 198.

[5]. "The Writings of George Washington: An Economic Interpretation of the Constitution" by John C. Fitzpatrick and Charles A. Beard

[6]. "Who was Thomas Jefferson?" accessible online at:
http://www.forerunner.com/forerunner/xo203_Jefferson_ _Who_was_.html

9/02/2007 04:13:00 PM  
Blogger Shrubageddon said...

Wow Shrub, you are seriously fucking deluded.

If believing Ron Paul is the answer, or any Politician, for that matter, means you are not deluded, then yes, I am deluded, seriously fuckin deluded....and thank you for saying so.

9/02/2007 04:16:00 PM  
Blogger Shrubageddon said...

Surrender,

You're awesome, Man, and I mean that. I respect you for who you are and what you do. Talk about a good heart....I don't believe anyone who posts here can hold a candle to your's.

I believe you do see how fragmented we are here in the States. Once again, I must thank Jeff for testing the waters with this Ron Paul post, because it shows that the solidarity that IC believes exists on this forum just does not exist....and Jeff's latest post proves it. I'm too far apart from these folks to ever join forces with them. The world they envison is not the world I envision. I'm not sure if you're familiar with the American version of Libertarianism, but let me tell you, Surrender, there are some spooky folks who have settled in that camp....and people like you and me don't have much in common with them...nor does IC. Sure, I agree that The Drug War is a crock, and that Marijuana should be no more illegal than Alcohol, but if that means Deadwood...then fuck it, that's not where it needs to go. That would be social regression....and that's where I see it going if the Libertarians had their way. And, for the record, I'm no socialist. I'm nothing, if anything, but at least I'm not Balless anymore.

9/02/2007 04:29:00 PM  
Blogger Shrubageddon said...

I'm not really afraid of Waco happening at the project site--the differences between us & them are just too profound for any such theater.

Really? You think? I'll see you on the 6:00 News, I guess.....the context remains to be determined. Meanwhile, I'd watch the Documentary, if you haven't.

9/02/2007 04:43:00 PM  
Blogger Dr. Bombay said...

Srhub,
Please..keep posting. Maybe you
will reveal something I didn't
already know..twenty five years ago.
And if anyone would like to meet
some people with some REAL balls,
head up to New Hampshire on the
15th of Sept. and stop by Ed and
Elaine Brown's place. As we like to
say in Rhode Island "Its gonna be a
wicked good time." By the way...
"The Myth Of American Democracy"
is aptly titled. America is not
a "Democracy" it is a Constitutional Republic..
Gotta fly...my Indian friends have
arrived and its time to break out
the "upstairs" bud and stoke up
the "Peace" pipe...

9/02/2007 05:48:00 PM  
Blogger Sounder said...

Shrub said;

"We're too fragmented, for numerous reasons, and that fragmentation is a seemingly permanent barrier to any meaningful change."

You love the fragmentation shrub; it is the thing that validates your view that the world is insane.

Shrub, you are such a quick-change artist, yes flimflam man. Syn said you are deluded because you said; "Just think guys....and Eve. Under the auspices of Ron Paul,,,,,,(disgusting imagary that need not be repeated)......................

This (disgusting political hack attack) is evidence of disturbance more than delusion. You are deluded not for refusing to "believe Ron Paul is the answer", but rather because your rhetoric debases the forms so as to cut off any search for substance.

But you already know that, don't you shrub?

9/02/2007 07:02:00 PM  
Blogger Shrubageddon said...

Maybe you
will reveal something I didn't
already know..twenty five years ago.


If you knew what I posted, then why did you contradict yourself in the earlier post? What I posted was a direct refutation of your earlier points in regards to the Foundless Dipshits.

Also, what the hell does smoking dope and drinking Martinis with your "Indian" friends have to do with it? Is that an argument of some sort? Is it meant to prove a point? I don't understand.

9/02/2007 07:05:00 PM  
Blogger Shrubageddon said...

disgusting imagary that need not be repeated

Oh my, Sounder the Puritan.

Fine, I'm delusional, Sounder, but that's an awfully ironic accusation coming from this crowd....especially Mr. Diesel.

FYI, I don't like the Fragmentation.....I deplore it, but that shouldn't preclude me from stating that it exists. We have to admit it before we could possibly change it.

So, let me ask you, Sounder. Am I the odd man out, here? Do I stand against a community in Solidarity with you, and I am in the minority? Does everyone here speak as one and in alignment with some coherent view and approach? Personally, I think not....but who knows, I could be wrong. Either way, it's still silly in that Ron Paul doesn't stand a chance in hell, and even if he did, nothing would change for the better because you have not changed the paradigm. Oh, but that's right, I would have to post as someone else for you to applaud that last statement because you can't see past your prejudice. How dare someone shake the fragile banana tree that some believe has been erected here.

9/02/2007 07:22:00 PM  
Blogger Syn Diesel said...

http://www.isil.org/resources/philosophy-of-liberty-index.html

This is what Libertarians believe.

This might be a helpful read as well:
"Why I Am Not a Conservative" by F. A. Hayek
http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig6/hayek1.html

9/02/2007 08:46:00 PM  
Blogger Syn Diesel said...

How about some Left-Libertarian Mutualist Freemarket Anti-Capitalism?

http://mutualist.blogspot.com/

Or some Austro-Athenian Libertarianism?

http://praxeology.net/


Selfishness is not only natural, but the only thing that is real. SELF, - The I - demands you act selfishly. That is the only way you'll be able to re-cognize and ac-knowledge this SELF in others via empathy.

http://www.objectivistcenter.org/ct-38-Introduction_Unrugged_Individualism.aspx

9/02/2007 08:51:00 PM  
Blogger Syn Diesel said...

IC, did you see my post about the Palaces 4 People and Solar PV Breeders?

Also, "political solutions" aren't the end-game. All "Libertarian -ism" rests on a change in "men's hearts" just like in Christiandom. We're not pro-politics, we're anti-state. A state which acts outside it's own-made by-laws and is still bad when it acts within those laws. (unintended consequenses, robbing Peter to pay Paul, klepto-corporitism, centralism)

9/02/2007 09:02:00 PM  
Blogger Sounder said...

Shrub;
“FYI, I don't like the Fragmentation”

Then why, pray tell, would you call perfect strangers,”stormtroopers or rape facilitators”? Sort of precludes you having to consider possible substance within other folk’s ideas. You can say what you like, but you act like you like fragmentation. Or maybe you just prefer a circle-jerk to that other display of homoerotic fixation that you claim everybody else is prone to.

Shrub;
“Am I the odd man out, here?” Bandwagon, -sorry I have no need to get on.

“Does everyone here speak as one and in alignment with some coherent view and approach?”

No, and why should we? Still you seem to do your best to make different style thinkers feel unwelcome here. So I will thank-you to not call my Ron Paul supporting friends, ‘stormtroopers and rape facilitators”. It is not a proper aide for communication or good will, but you know that, don’t you shrub?

Shrub, your ARG thing with you as the alter ego of the real George Bush; -that is ‘dopey’.

9/02/2007 10:07:00 PM  
Blogger ericswan said...

Shrub and IC..You may be interested to note that you have streamed into the Rense pages for comments that each of you made that was picked up by Makow, Rense and Livingstone. I'm not sure that you would appreciate the twists and turns that make your statements on Jeff's blog something you ain't..

http://www.terrorism-illuminati.com/

9/02/2007 11:21:00 PM  
Blogger Syn Diesel said...

ericswan, could you be less cryptic?

9/02/2007 11:54:00 PM  
Blogger Syn Diesel said...

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1263677258215075609&hl=en-CA

Oh looky, Libertarian Party 2004 Presidential nominee Aaron Russo. Wow, what an EVIL EVIL cold-hearted man, man! [/sarc]

9/03/2007 01:40:00 AM  
Blogger Belliosto said...

Why argue over a candidate that will get 5 percent of the total votes for president at the very best? Unless the majority of republicans throw their votes for him he will totally lose the presidential race. If the powers that be rig the election for Paul I will be laughing so hard I may go into torpor. But if he is shot and killed prior to these crappy election days ahead of us I may probably cry.

9/03/2007 01:45:00 AM  
Blogger Belliosto said...

The inside knowledge and contacts politicians have while in office usually serves their personal ambitions and resumes to offer firms foreign or not. The appointed heads of departments and any appointed government official has a lot to offer to foreign industrialists and governments. The money these politicians make with kick backs and actually serving foreign interests in utter betrayal of what their political position in their country represents is tremendous. The men and women in government who represent the people of America are treasonous to the core. The value of politicians to the common people will get lower to boot. These treasonous politicians in the majority (silence is treason) are looking out for number uno. All I know is the song God bless America is used by these traitors in office and it is actually God (if you believe, you understand my point if you don't) damn America and the people on this land. It's our lousy pride and our snickering that is important today. If any pooped faced leader steps up in USA he's probably going to be or is treasonous to the core. The drool is even running down my mouth as I'm typing this. The temptation is too strong to overcome. These politicians are toast.

9/03/2007 02:20:00 AM  
Blogger just_another_dick said...

More scrolling finger exercise time....


IC, it's probably bad manners to bring up the past, but I have bad manners in spades sooooooooooooo....

You said this:

"Richard’s the one who claims that humans are vile & nasty by nature, that given the chance they’ll Lord-of-the-Flies all over each other, and that the system set up and run by the PTB has nothing to do with this inherent nastiness."

I claim nothing of the sort. The "behavior " of the "PTB" is only a logical outgrowth of what's found in all of us. You may be nobly transparent in your endeavors but there will always be some motherfucker itching to hack your system & hijack your creation for himself if it can be perceived as being successful.

&
"He then “backs this up” with quotes from establishment sources (look back at our many Nature of Man & Nature dialogues), his own personal experiences with human cruelty and, in this thread, the same kind of stories that are the bread & butter of the 6 O’ Clock News, which are designed and broadcast to perpetuate this myth in order to justify all the Law & Order."

Actually IC, you won't find that story in the news. I only know about it because family members know witnesses. That area is being up-scaled. Children's Hospital recently bought out a Catholic hospital & built a huge add-on.
Landlords are hoping for huge profits from what had been, up to a few years ago, a low income neighborhood. Emphasizing those stories would hurt business & fly in the face of the violence paradigm they normally sell.
While I have it from good sources that the incident was drug related-evidently the chap was an inveterate crack user who didn't pay his bills-all of the teens involved weren't black, they were white.

& calling this myth making is just plain silly.

Almost as silly as denying that a slap is as much a part of the human animal as a caress.

& you said:

"My position is that we are infinitely adaptable, vulnerable to any propaganda & susceptible to any worldview sold to us by those in control of the media of transmission."

Really IC, no shit.

But no one forces people to turn on the media of transmission.

I mean seriously pal, have you watched tv lately?

Or listened to the radio?

Calling it pablum would be an insult to babies everywhere.

If this is what they use to brainwash people then people have to be incredibly fucking stupid & completely beyond any of your appeals to a rational solution.


&

"This goes all the way back to our first discussions of the real meaning if the infamous Milgram study: Richard (and the conventional wisdom) declare this proves our inherent baseness, while I (and a much smaller segment of public opinion) say it only demonstrates the ease with which we can be imprinted, some would say programmed."

Actually IC, my fav psych experiment involves the arbitrary devision of a group of men into prisoners & guards.
I don't remember the name, but i do know it's fairly famous.

You know the one, where things turned ugly within a few days & the experiment had to be terminated.

It's my fav because I've worked in that experiment, or a form of it, for going on 16 years now.

We have a similar criteria:

a. a firm dividing line between "us" and "them."

b. very little supervision

Do you realize how incredibly easy it would be for me to make a living hell out of the life of one of my clients?

But I choose not to.

Others don't feel the same.

They make a choice too.

Y'know IC, in dealing with violence, I've learned there are 3 kinds of reactions to getting smacked in the puss

1. Those who book

2. Those who cry, whine, whimper or otherwise make a spectacle of themselves

3. Those who raise there hands to strike back before they even have time to consciously realize it.

I'm a #3.

I've survived at this job without beating the shit out of anyone because i found the place in myself where I could completely disconnect myself from my emotions.

I chose to do that because it would...ummmmm....be a bit snarky, to say the least, to beat the shit out of a retarded guy.

Choice, it's a wonderful thing.


Now, in my mind IC, the "PTB" may gain many hours of malicious glee from tweaking humanity's puppet strings, but that's only because we make it so damn easy for them to do so.

Here's a neat statistic IC, supposedly, in this country, there are 90 guns for every 100 people. Now if these well armed yoo-hoos-& please, i have nothing against gun ownership. I've just met some, shall we say, over exuberant mf-ers in my life- weren't having their bellies scratched so seductively by the drivel they choose to lap up like catnip, then I doubt they'd need much convincing.

As it stands, Americans like being Americans, with all the attendant horror that entails.

You apparently network with all sorts of neat folks IC, but I'm stuck with the people I work with.
They endlessly gossip, flirt, disrespect & otherwise create oodles of drama for no other reason than alleviating the boredom of their lives.

They look for 2 things in an employee:

1. the ability to speak English. Not necessarily spell it very well, but speak it.

2. a pulse

&, when you think of it, that's all they need in a voter too.

I know there's probably a correlation here IC, but I'm just too damn tired to care.

9/03/2007 03:25:00 AM  
Blogger Syn Diesel said...

http://www.chelseagreen.com/2007/items/everythingiwanttodo
http://www.acresusa.com/toolbox/reprints/Salatin_Sept03.pdf
http://www.mindfully.org/Farm/2003/Everything-Is-Illegal1esp03.htm


OH DEAR ME!!! A FASCIST FARMER! HE CALLS HIMSELF A “Christian-libertarianenvironmentalist-lunatic farmer.” HE MUST BE A MIS-INFO AGENT OF TEH COSMIC GALACTIC-AETHER GREYS!!!

9/03/2007 06:26:00 AM  
Blogger wwwdotnet said...

Way I see it, Ron Paul is a great idea. Instead of anti-establishment feeling coming "only" from the populace, there is now instead a kind of bookend up there in the senate. Between these two levels, ideas and information is helped to spread out and out.



Also, if you can't support ANY politicians, what the fuck are you all gonna do? I think that supporting Ron Paul is good for the reason that it will allow for more of the public to receive more of an education in REALITY. By putting him into the mainstream media limelight, people will start to hear about the federal reserve, and just how unfederal it is etc...



America needs an honest history lesson. All this conspiracy talk is no good unless it is used somehow, it nees to get spread, it needs to get re-packaged into digestible niblets for the general public, who aren't all intellectually hungry for the truth. they don't know what the damned truth is. This is why, i think, Ron Paul is a great idea! he embodies anti-establishment, and thus makes it ACCESSIBLE. Now if you mutter the fact that the IRS is ilegal, you may not be branded on the ass as a conspiracy nut. As surely a 71-year-old-baby-delivering-doctor-nice-kind-of-man-who-has-his-own-recipe-book can't be a conspiracy nut. They've already tried to smear him as such. So with this rise in ideas, people will get a taste for them, and as the hunger starts, new figures will appear. hopefully.



Brenda, sorry for the judgement last time around, i've learned to never judge a human by their blogging. x


DISCLAIMER - Apologies for the CAPS LOCK, still dunno how to make text italic, or hyperlink it. I'm so jelous. And also, i may be missing the point, but this is the image we are receing here on england. Gonna go over there soon to get a taste of american life before the shit hits overloaded hyperdrive fan of monstrous proportions!

9/03/2007 06:28:00 AM  
Blogger Syn Diesel said...

Belliosto said...
Why argue over a candidate that will get 5 percent of the total votes for president at the very best?


Belliosto, you do understand your opinion can be called fucking stupid?

Maybe because Ron Paul is arguing proper politics rather than "let's take everything when we win" politics of the average fucktard candidate?

He's saying certain things aren't up for debate let alone majority vote.


BAHHHHHHH.....

9/03/2007 06:30:00 AM  
Blogger Syn Diesel said...

wwwdotnet, use HTML by using less than and more than signs. You know HTML?

like this:

[i]italics[/i]
[b]bold[/b]
[a href=http://www.link.com/]webpage link text[/a]

replace [ and ] with < and >

9/03/2007 06:37:00 AM  
Blogger Syn Diesel said...

If minorities are best protected by democracy as the weeny socialists claim, wouldn't the majority voters have left the minority alone anyhoo? I mean, the majority does what it wants to.


Hmmmm....

9/03/2007 06:56:00 AM  
Blogger Sounder said...

Richard, good post, as you say;

"Now, in my mind IC, the "PTB" may gain many hours of malicious glee from tweaking humanity's puppet strings, but that's only because we make it so damn easy for them to do so."

I would suggest that its not only because we make it so damn easy. Our very language and structuring of concepts confers authority to these conceptual salesmen of the common doctrine. Their markets are insured via the fixing of categories. We can make it harder to tweak the strings by making better ‘pictures’ of reality, or new criteria for understanding.

And then;

"You apparently network with all sorts of neat folks IC, but I'm stuck with the people I work with.
They endlessly gossip, flirt, disrespect & otherwise create oodles of drama for no other reason than alleviating the boredom of their lives."

This is something we all see in spades. Even if and when the pathologies are more cleverly concealed. I attribute this to encouragement and promotion of contrived expressions of both Order and Liberty. I dare say, people are bored and resort to this dysfunctional shit, because they do not otherwise feel connected to the creative flow of the universe. That is what Dualism does, it locks focus within the objects and gives them hard boundaries. Because peoples focus is mis-directed and reactive mind oriented we miss much opportunity for creative problem solving rumination.

9/03/2007 08:31:00 AM  
Blogger Syn Diesel said...

"the hearts of men..."

9/03/2007 09:05:00 AM  
Blogger Syn Diesel said...

"I would suggest that its not only because we make it so damn easy. Our very language and structuring of concepts confers authority to these conceptual salesmen of the common doctrine. Their markets are insured via the fixing of categories. We can make it harder to tweak the strings by making better ‘pictures’ of reality, or new criteria for understanding."

As Leopold Kohr struggled to explained... it's not about measures... but about the measuring.

http://www.resurgence.org/resurgence/184/illich.htm


Like most of the Utopian thinkers, he spent much of his mental life thinking about thinking, struggling to find the way to make other brains to "resonate" in the same way his was. How do you explain how it is you see the relationships to everything you see?

Language is key.

9/03/2007 09:36:00 AM  
Blogger Syn Diesel said...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leopold_Kohr

"Leopold Kohr rehabilitates anarchism as a political theory. “Violent Anarchists are actually rippers”. For Kohr, anarchism is the non-violent form of living together, and because of rationality every human being has the ability to treat other people with dignity and respect, to practice a jointly form of community in which free mutual appreciation is practiced on such a high level, that an external dominant power is unnecessary. So Kohr is diametrically opposed to the theory of order in a large group like for example Thomas Hobbes and David Hume. Of course the target of anarchism is utopian and will never be reachable completely. This at the same time is its power and protection against misuse through capitalistic and communistic ideologies: If a Leader/Party/Power claims to have reached the target of anarchism, he/she is a priori unmasked as an abuser because this target can only be striven for, and can never count as historical."

9/03/2007 10:21:00 AM  
Blogger Syn Diesel said...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E._F._Schumacher

Three Plains of Thought
"May 1957 He called his talk 'The Insufficiency of Liberalism' and it was an exposition of what he termed the “three stages of development”. The first great leap, he said, was made when man moved from stage one of primitive religion to stage two of scientific realism. This was the stage modern man tended to be at. A few move to the third stage in which one can find in the lapses and deficiencies in science and realism, and that there is something beyond fact and science. He called this stage three. The problem, he explained, was that stage one and stage three appear to be exactly the same to people stuck in stage two. Consequently, those in stage three are seen as having had some sort of a relapse into childish nonsense. Only those in stage three, can understand the differences between stage one and stage"

9/03/2007 10:24:00 AM  
Blogger ericswan said...

We all have to get our hands dirty. The infinitely stupid people think they can get out of work by being infinitely stupid and the intelligentsia think they are too smart to do work. When we can get over ourselves and begin to rebuild our neighbourhoods to meet the basic needs of food, warmth, and shelter, than we will begin to see the wisdom of our forefathers. The technology to do less work is out there but it barely balances that horn of plenty that the nomadics had in their day. We're all still itching and scratching for survival. Eat your fiat currency and good luck with that.

9/03/2007 10:35:00 AM  
Blogger Dr. Bombay said...

Ericswan,
I'm trying to find those
comments that were linked to Rense,
Makow,etc. but I'm having trouble
with the link. Can you help me out
and point me in the right direction?

Thanks!!

9/03/2007 10:45:00 AM  
Blogger ericswan said...

QUOTE OF THE DAY

I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals. In such an economy, the means of production are owned by society itself and are utilized in a planned fashion. A planned economy, which adjusts production to the needs of the community, would distribute the work to be done among all those able to work and would guarantee a livelihood to every man, woman, and child. The education of the individual, in addition to promoting his own innate abilities, would attempt to develop in him a sense of responsibility for his fellow men in place of the glorification of power and success in our present society.

Albert Einstein


-----------------------------------


The earth's trees have become tears of heaven's cheeks.... The flower that tempted the wind to carry its perfume, died yesterday."
-Ali Ahmad Said, Victims of a Map, Saqi Books

When the Mongol hordes invaded what is now Iraq, Gengis Khan is: " ...said to have declared: 'all cities must be razed, so that the world may once again become a great steppe, in which Mongol mothers will suckle free and happy children.'"
-From Sumer to Saddam, Geoff Simons, Macmillan, 1994

This was the twelfth century "war on terror" and it is not delusional to witness what has happened to Iraq since March 2003: the destruction of an entire civil society, history, records, education, health, life, to draw the parallels. "We fight them over there, so we don't have to fight them over here" is the Capitol Hill mantra, regarding a society with no weapons of mass destruction, unable even to board a 'plane from Iraq, during the thirteen year pre-invasion embargo. A people, the majority of which, just prayed their baby would be born whole and healthy and survive to adulthood, in a country where medicines, surgical equipment and therapeutic aids were vetoed by the US and UK - and where hyper-inflation was such that many families ate in rotation, one giving up food for a day, so the others would have a little more.

A thousand years before the Mongol invasion, the region had developed a "sophisticated civilisation" with "innovations in literature, science, art and civil engineering ... gardens, irrigation systems, libraries; ornate palaces flourished. With the Mongol onslaught, all were 'comprehensively looted', the region depopulated. Men, women and children were butchered, not alone by the Mongols, but by willing and unwilling collaborators they brought with them: '..whole cities lay in ruins.' Those not slaughtered fled a reign of terror, where culture and creativity had previously dominated." How history repeats.

http://www.signs-of-the-times.org/articles/show/139214-Yazidis%2C+The+People+of+the+Peacock+Angel

9/03/2007 10:45:00 AM  
Blogger ericswan said...

Ericswan,
I'm trying to find those
comments that were linked to Rense,
Makow,etc. but I'm having trouble
with the link. Can you help me out

http://www.rense.com/ scroll down to Makow link..

http://www.rense.com/general78/cabs.htm

in the Makow story...

TERRORISM AND THE ILLUMINATI

Livingstone's latest book (http://www.terrorism-illuminati.com/), six years in the making, is available free on line or as an handsome 300-page book from Amazon. It traces the 2500-year Cabala Conspiracy from ancient times to the present day and is packed with interesting new information.

http://www.terrorism-illuminati.com


Necromocracy (Part One)
Jeff Wells, Rigorous Intuition



“Across history, other nations had gone insane. Other movements had been evil or tried awful wizardries. But none perpetrated murder with such dedicated efficiency. The horror must have been directed not so much at death itself, but at some hideous goal beyond death.”


- David Brin,

link to Jeff's post...http://rigint.blogspot.com/2006/10/necromocracy-part-one.html



Shrubageddon said...
Iridescent Cuttlefish, pronouncer of the Internal Flame, please tell me where you stand on support of the soldiers. Do you support them as they murder Iraqis and Afghanis on a daily basis?

I would really like to know....because, IMHO, this is truly where Progressivism fails. You can't solicit Mammon to destroy Mammon.....but, rather, you must refuse to be Mammon's tool, especially when it comes to killing your fellow human beings.

Your own words, please, without references.

iridescent cuttlefish said...
Shrub,
? Do I support our troops? I'm flabbergasted. Me?! Okay, howsabout this formulation: I support out troops by demanding that they be re-assigned to rebuilding the infrastructure in a sustainable fashion. Furthermore, I propose to ensure their safety by confiscating their guns and shipping them to Canada. The officers will be screened for war crimes and then made into goodwill ambassadors by "volunteering" to clean latrines and sewer systems in the former colonial outposts. (After sentencing, all members of the BushCo Team will join them, without mosquito netting.)

10/14/2006 03:18:00 PM

I hope this twisted tail stops wagging. People will talk. As far as being cryptic.. Guilty, as charged..

9/03/2007 10:59:00 AM  
Blogger Syn Diesel said...

ericswan said...
QUOTE OF THE DAY



from the man who brought us the nuclear bomb.


Great Job!

9/03/2007 11:00:00 AM  
Blogger ericswan said...

2 Responses to “300 is Propaganda for War Against Iran”
just Says:

March 18th, 2007 at 6:43 pm
i saw 300 on its opening night, somewhat prepared for politcal overtones, but I was really surprised at just how grotesque the Persians where made out to be. On the battle front the Persians wheeled out hidious monster after hideous monster, each depicting another page from Freud’s book of subconscious shadow symbology; meanwhile back in the persian camp, overt homosexuality and mysoginy abounded. My concern is that while I’m aware at this deliberate shaping of my perceptions, couldthe film still be having just as great an effect on me, as on the next, non-political minded viewer?

iesa Says:

August 6th, 2007 at 1:35 pm
*How I Went To See A War And A Fox News Editorial Broke Out*
————————————————————————
Is the new movie “300″ a thinly-veiled proxy for justifying aggressive
policies towards the Muslim world? Or is it more complex than that?
————————————————————————
*By A. Arain, March 12, 2007*

I want my money back!

Tonight we went to see the movie ” 300
“, and what we found instead was a
polemic in support of Bush’s policies, both domestic (the Patriot Act)
and foreign (war campaigns on any country in the Middle East not named
Israel).

In the movie, the Persian king Xerxes sends an emissary to the Spartan
king, Leonides, instructing him to submit to the rule of Xerxes.
Leonides responds by violating the age-old rule and having the messenger
killed.

What ensues is the historically based tale of Leonides and 300 Spartan
warriors momentarily holding off thousands of hordes of Persian soldiers
in the narrow mountain pass leading to Sparta before finally succombing
to the exotic, demonic, decadent, freakish and effeminate Persian hordes.

The cheerleading for the Patriot Act and war powers of the president
starts early, with the king facing the prospect of war during the holy
festival of Carneius; by Spartan law, it is forbidden to wage war in
this month. In Frank Miller’s take on Shakespearean dialogue, the king
wonders “how the very laws I have sworn to protect now keep me from
protecting them”. The point is driven home when the queen is asked what
she would tell the council while her husband wages war in violation of
the law. “I’d tell them that the very freedom that they live by must
come at the cost of blood.”

When the queen voices her intentions to the treacherous and conniving
councilmember Theron, he reminds her that the king’s war is illegal, and
tells her that the council will never approve the troop mobilization,
declaring, “I own that council!” His duplicitous argument that the war
is illegal proves to be a mere cover for the fact that he’d been paid
off by Xerxes. How quaint and coincidental that a high-ranking Pentagon
member recently questioned where various high profile law firms are
obtaining their funding to defend the accused who sit in Guantanamo Bay.
Nancy Pelosi would do well to check for the imprint of Xerxes on her
gold coins.

But the movie addresses more than just the Patriot Act or war powers. It
also goes out of its way to depict a battle that would allow Samuel
Huntington to die a happy man. The Greeks all appear as western
Europeans, whereas the Persians are represented by Africans, Arabs,
Indians and even Chinese.

Like Braveheart, the movie presents a number of ancient and unschooled
soldiers delivering stirring speeches about “our freedom”, “our
democracy” and even, centuries before the birth of the nation-state,
references to “our country”. These characterizations are juxtaposed to
the despotic slavery of the Persian Empire. The Spartans may have simply
forgotten that the Greek empire used extensive slave labor, and that
voting was limited to males of the patrician class. And since they were
after all austere soldiers, they may well not have known that some
historians identify the very Persian Persepolis as the world’s first
democracy.

But throughout this pro-democracy blood orgy, there can be little doubt
that the makers of 300 saved their most scathing words for the broadside
against the modern middle east. One of the last lines in the movie
features an exhortation to save our lands from “the tyranny and
mysticism” of the attackers.

But like the bigots who killed Sikhs after 9/11 and the politicians who
pandered to them by advocating and passing the Patriot Act before anyone
had read it, the movie doesn’t do subtlety, or at least, does not do it
well.

The movie’s initial sequence describes the Spartan process of inspecting
newborns for physical imperfections, which if found, resulted in the
heaving of the newborn off of a cliff. Since these same Spartans are the
white and conservative good guys, it’s anyone’s best guess as to who
protests for the rights of these killed newborns.

Nor does the irony end there. The movie’s goal seems simple enough:
dehumanize and denigrate the peoples, civilizations and political
systems of the Middle East. How ironic that the chosen literary vehicle
for this was a suicide mission of a few stout believers. Perhaps the
Spartans, much like Fox News, bring more credibility to the people they
cast as enemies.

/A. Arain is a Chicago professional and freelance writer./


Nostradamus

In the year 1999 and seven months
The Great, King of Terror shall
come from the sky. He will bring to
life the King of The Mongols. Before
and after, Mars reigns happily."
C10 Q 72


We are talking about propaganda here and the King of terror from the sky is propaganda on the airways.

9/03/2007 11:37:00 AM  
Blogger ericswan said...

Then the great Empire of the Antichrist will begin where once was Attila's empire and the new Xerxes will descend with great and countless numbers, so that the coming of the Holy Ghost, proceeding from the 48th degree, will make a transmigration, chasing out the abomination of the Christian Church, and whose reign will be for a time and to the end of time.

This will be preceded by a solar eclipse more dark and gloomy than any since the creation of the world, except that after the death and passion of Jesus Christ. And it will be in the month of October than the great translation will be made and it will be such that one will think the gravity of the earth has lost its natural movement and that it is to be plunged into the abyss of perpetual darkness.

http://www.crystalinks.com/nostyepistle.html

.................................

Ever wonder why Nostradamus was talking about lat and long before anyone knew the world was round?

And just exactly what is the significance of October 13, 2007?

9/03/2007 11:49:00 AM  
Blogger Fructedor said...

I've been reading RI for a few years now, and consider it one of the best and most open-minded blogs on the Web. Some very clever people exchanging here too, good information and good ideas going around.

Here's a comment from Wilhelm Reich which I've posted before, but it seems particularly pertinent to this thread - words to the effect of - 'Once you've determined that you're locked in a cage, there's little point arguing about the colour of the paint on the bars. Energy is better spent getting out.'

Anyone who so much as scratches the surface of the current situation has to see that, far beyond the worm being in the fruit, there's almost no bloody fruit left anywhere. Respect for anyone who throws in their two cents. Support and share information by anyone who makes a stand for common humanity. The foulness of power is now so blatant that even people who would rather not know need little persuasion to see it for what it is. The more there are, the greater the pressure for change.

And here's another comment, from Zen - 'Until a person has attained satori, anything they do, however well-intentioned, will only add to the confusion.' I take this to mean that real positive action can only be based in the realisation of our filiation with the Life force, whatever you want to call it.

Prayer, whatever form suits you best, is a genuine creative power available to us all. We are all far more than we have been led to believe.

Fructedor

9/03/2007 11:51:00 AM  
Blogger Fructedor said...

And I disagree with Syn Diesel when he or she says that Einstein brought us the nuclear bomb. IMO, Einstein was exploring and trying to understand the universe in the best way he knew how, and shared that information. His discovery was hijacked and used for what were ultimately evil ends. I don't see how that disqualifies his opinion about socialism. That sort of thinking seems to me about as spurious as the thinking that causes politicians to pretend that they've never had pre- or extra-marital sex, smoked a joint or gone to bed without brushing their teeth.

How about a comment from Tina Turner - 'What you see is what you get.'

Fructedor

9/03/2007 12:05:00 PM  
Blogger ericswan said...

Jeff..your blog is cycling in very tight turns.

Check out “Author, Author”—the Jeff Wells article that inspired all of this time research that Brainsturbator has been devoted to lately. (Jeff Wells also has a book coming out soon, which I am highly anticipating.)

This interview with Mac Tonnies is full of fascinating brainfood, and I also recommend checking out his site, Posthuman Blues.

http://www.brainsturbator.com/site/comments/jacques_vallees_associative_universe/

9/03/2007 12:29:00 PM  
Blogger surrender said...

I have edited the following article but felt I wanted to post it instead of linking.

This is what our political system has now become and no matter what anyone says or believes at this stage of the GAME, the future of our lives should not EVER depend on these folks, for in my opinion, they do not represent anyone except the Cabal.

I will say it again and again.

However we do it, we must take charge of our own lives and ignore this parallel reality that is mutating our Evolution.

Religion has distorted the possibility of us ever realizing our own power to create, for It hides the truth of our True Relationship to the Source of that power.

Inquisition 2008: Candidates Get Grilled by the Media's Holy Standards
By Rob Boston, Church & State Magazine
Posted on September 1, 2007, Printed on September 3, 2007

http://www.alternet.org/story/61381/

"Democratic presidential contender John Edwards was in a tough spot.
The phenomenon is bipartisan. As some Democrats seek to add a little more "God talk" on the stump, Republican contenders are frequently heard talking about religion -- an attempt to sway voters aligned with the Religious Right, a well-funded, well-organized presence in the GOP that always flexes more muscle during the primary season, when Participating in a CNN debate on "faith and values," Edwards was confronted with a question that can best be described as the theological equivalent of "Are you still beating your wife?" Host Soledad O'Brien pressed Edwards to discuss the "biggest sin you've ever committed."

Edwards dodged the question, telling O'Brien, "I'd have a very hard time telling you one thing, one specific sin. If I've had a day in my 54 years that I haven't sinned multiple times I'd be amazed. We all fall short, which is why we have to ask for forgiveness from the Lord."

During the same June 4 event, U.S. Sen. Hillary Clinton (D-N.Y.) was asked to explain how her faith got her through her husband's marital infidelity, and U.S. Sen. Barack Obama (D-Ill.) was asked if he believes God takes sides in wars.
Many Americans might be surprised that such questions are being asked at all, given the pressing international and domestic issues vying for the candidates' attention. With a war in Iraq raging, health care in crisis and energy costs spiraling, lots of voters are interested in hearing the candidates' specific policy positions on key issues, not bromides on how often a candidate prays and what he or she prays for.
Why is religion so prominent in the race so soon? Several factors are at work. Among them is what may be a sea change in the way the Democratic Party deals with religion. Democrats are being advised by moderate evangelicals like Jim Wallis to talk more openly about faith and God. (A Wallis group, Call to Renewal, sponsored the June debate on CNN. A similar event is planned for the top GOP candidates.) In the 2006 elections, some Democrats won seats after raising religious themes. Some advisors want the party to exploit this trend.
Time magazine reported July 12 on the efforts of one of those strategists, Mara Vanderslice, who worked on John Kerry's presidential campaign in 2004 and advised various Democratic campaigns in 2006. Last year, it was reported that Vanderslice, who was raised Unitarian but converted to evangelical Christianity as an adult, advised candidates not to use the term "separation of church and state," arguing it alienates some voters.

Vanderslice has more advice for the Democrats in 2008.

"It has to be authentic," she told CNN.com recently. "This is not about 'Jesus-ing' up the party, so to speak .... It just won't work if it's seen as a cynical ploy."
Leading Democratic officials are paying attention to this type of advice. On Capitol Hill, Time reported, Speaker Nancy Pelosi asked U.S. Rep. David Price (D-N.C.) to oversee an effort to reach out to religious voters.
Oval Office aspirants like Clinton, Obama, Edwards and others are taking the advice to boost talk about religion as well.."
As party strategist Mike McCurry told Time, "What we're seeing is a 'Great Awakening' in the Democratic Party," invoking a period in early American history when evangelical forms of religion became popular.

Talk about God reverberates on the stump. Obama uttered a line that has since become famous: "The pundits like to slice and dice our country into red states and blue states -- red states for Republicans, blue states for Democrats. But I've got news for them, too. We worship an awesome God in the blue states, and we don't like federal agents poking around our libraries in the red states."

On the hustings, Obama is often upfront about his faith, sometimes mentioning his conversion and his longtime membership in the United Church of Christ. (Obama, however, has also endorsed the separation of church and state, noting that many evangelicals fought for it in the colonial era.)

The media has picked up on this trend and, in fact, fueled it. A spate of "Democrats-get-religion" stories has appeared, as well as religious profiles of specific candidates. In early July, The New York Times ran a lengthy front-page article focusing on Clinton's religious life. The New York senator talked of how she carries a Bible on the campaign trail, reads commentaries on the Scripture and how she has felt "the presence of the Holy Spirit on many occasions."

Clinton added that she believes in the resurrection of Jesus but is less certain that Christianity is the only path to salvation.

But there are dangers to such an approach as well. At least a third of the Democratic Party base is composed of voters who attend church rarely, if ever. Many of these secularists are wary of the new emphasis on God talk and are concerned that the party might be moving away from its stand in favor of church-state separation.

Polls show most Americans are wary of basing policy explicitly on a politician's interpretation of the Bible. A poll released by Time magazine in July asked, "Do you think that a president should or should not use his or her personal interpretation of the Bible to make decisions as president?" A solid majority of 62.2 percent said no. Less than half that number, 28.7 percent, said yes.
Even most self-identified Republicans were wary, with 46.4 percent saying they disagree with Bible-based policy, and 42.6 percent agreeing.
Nevertheless, religious themes have frequently driven the Republican campaign this season as candidates seek to curry favor with the Religious Right.
Many Religious Right activists are horrified at the thought that former New York City mayor Rudy Giuliani will win the nomination. Giuliani is pro-choice on abortion, favors some gay rights and has been married three times. Candidates are closely identified with the Religious Right, but concerns linger that they would be weak candidates in the general election. Some Religious Right leaders hope to stop Giuliani by promoting an alternative, such as former Sen. Fred Thompson (R-Tenn.).

With the GOP front-runner failing to inspire enthusiasm, other candidates are seeking the Religious Right vote. Former Massachusetts Gov. Mitt Romney has been making a strong play for it. However, political observers say Romney has two strikes against him: He ran as a moderate on social issues when seeking office in Massachusetts, and he is a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (the Mormons).

Romney now claims his positions on issues like abortion and gay rights have changed. Some evangelicals accept that transformation, but others remain wary. In addition, members of a hardcore faction that considers Mormonism a cult often challenge Romney about his membership in the Mormon faith during public events.
The assault began July 5 when Focus on the Family attacked Romney in a press release, asserting that Romney did nothing to stop Marriott Hotels from offering pornographic movies in rooms during his tenure on the hotel chain's board from 1992-2001.
The FRC soon piled on, blasting Romney's supposed tolerance for porn to the Associated Press. The assault was also distributed to various right-wing Web sites.
Hoping to deflect the attacks, Romney continues to play up his Religious Right friendly views. He recently released a new television commercial that attacks popular culture as violent and over-sexualized. Romney promises to clean up Web-based porn but does not say how.

Blumenthal also reported that the FRC is promoting Thompson to Religious Right activists behind the scenes.

Thompson, meanwhile, is making a big play for the movement's vote as well. U.S. News reported July 15 that Thompson has hired Bill Wichterman, to lead an effort to reach out to religious conservatives.

But there's a risk in all of this. A recent poll of Republican voters, conducted for the Republican Main Street Partnership and three other moderate GOP organizations by Fabrizio, McLaughlin and Associates, found 53 percent saying the party "has spent too much time focusing on moral issues such as abortion and gay marriage and should instead be spending time focusing on economic issues such as taxes and government spending." Seventy-two percent said the government should not interfere with legal abortion, and nearly 80 percent backed employment protections for gay people.

Results like this have infuriated Religious Right leaders. Texas preacher Rick Scarborough, who longs to take the late Jerry Falwell's place, blasted the poll results in a message to supporters, calling on his backers to sign a petition to the Republican National Committee demanding that the party "remain true to its pro-life, pro-marriage, pro-Biblical morality base."

In May, the Southern Baptist lobbyist introduced Thompson before a meeting of the secretive Council for National Policy, an influential war council of far-right leaders. During his remarks, Thompson blasted the Supreme Court for its rulings upholding church-state separation.

In an attempt to pose as even-handed, the Family Research Council plans to hold a national conference called "The Washington Briefing 2007" Oct. 19-21 in the nation's capital. The FRC claims that all of the 2008 presidential contenders have been invited, but Democratic candidates are unlikely to spend time speaking at such a hostile venue. In fact, FOF and the FRC have made their disdain for the Democratic field clear. Leaders of the groups seem infuriated that the Democrats are daring to raise religious themes this time.

Tom Minnery, senior vice president of government and public policy for Focus on the Family, attacked Obama in a July 5 column that was distributed through WorldNetDaily, a right-wing Web site.
Minnery called Obama "thoroughly misleading about the proper roles of religion and government" for suggesting that government should play a bigger role in the provision of health care and aid to the poor.

Americans United Executive Director Barry W. Lynn has criticized the overemphasis on religion in both parties, discussing the issue frequently in the media.

At a recent forum on religion in public life in Austin, Lynn blasted candidates in both parties for "hiring ethics and religion advisers -- that is to say, spin doctors." Lynn added, "It suggests they are not really comfortable themselves knowing whatever it is they do believe.

"This is pandering," Lynn concluded.""

Rob Boston is the editor of Church and State magazine.

View this story online at: http://www.alternet.org/story/61381/

9/03/2007 02:23:00 PM  
Blogger surrender said...

SHRUB:

Thanks for the acknowledgement.

I got an idea, today.

For those of us who chose to live "off the grid", we could create an alternate way of life, alternate communities, sustaniable living stuctures, etc. Then we elect you as President and IC as Vice-President. Your qualifications are the ability to get how fucked it is and IC has the ability to get how we can fix it.

Then I could live in a HOBBIT HOUSE on my mountain in Haiti that I have always dreamed of....

and watch the destruction of the world on You Tube.

Hey! Whaddya say???

LOVE..........

ps. You called me "the Man". I hope it doens't matter, because I have no balls, only ovaries (so far).

9/03/2007 02:41:00 PM  
Blogger surrender said...

And then there is this:

DR.BOMBAY, SYN DIESEL AND others, please pay attention!!



"Bush: 'I Cry A Lot'"

Sunday, September 2, 2007 5:23 PM

"I’ve got God’s shoulder to cry on, and I cry a lot,” President Bush admits. “I’ll bet I’ve shed more tears than you can count as president.”

Looking to the day he leaves the White House, President Bush says he'll concentrate on making speeches and running an institute that promotes democracy around the world. He also admitted that he cries "a lot" on God's shoulder.


Bush made the revelations to Robert Draper, for his book “Dead Certain,” which will be released on Tuesday.


According to the New York Times, Bush told Draper:



* "I’ve got God’s shoulder to cry on, and I cry a lot. I’ll bet I’ve shed more tears than you can count as president" -- an implied reference to the casualties of the Iraq war.



* “I’ll give some speeches, just to replenish the ol’ coffers [when I leave office]. I don’t know what my dad gets — it’s more than 50-75” thousand dollars a speech, and “Clinton’s making a lot of money.”



* “We’ll have a nice place in Dallas,” where he will be running what he called “a fantastic Freedom Institute” promoting democracy around the world.



* “I can just envision getting in the car, getting bored, going down to the ranch.”

Cheers! to ALL..........

9/03/2007 03:07:00 PM  
Blogger surrender said...

Sorry guys, I am reading too much atlternative news, today. This last headline just sent me to my room.

DR. BOMBAY this headline is from the country you live in. Best Wishes.

"NOW POLICE ARE TOLD THEY CAN USE TASER GUNS ON CHILDREN"

'Police have been given the go-ahead to use Taser stun guns against children. The relaxing of restrictions on the use of the weapons comes despite warnings that they could trigger a heart attack in youngsters. Until now, Tasers - which emit a 50,000-volt electric shock - have been used only by specialist officers as a "non lethal" alternative to firearms.'"

WHAT?????????????

9/03/2007 03:26:00 PM  
Blogger Shrubageddon said...

Eve.....oh, I'm sorry, I meant Surrender, thanks for that info. about the other Shrub, my illegitimate Brutha From Anutha Mutha. In keeping with the sentiment of your post, I give you this:

Don't Let The Son Catch You Crying.

9/03/2007 03:34:00 PM  
Blogger Shrubageddon said...

Eve....I'm sorry, I did it again.....I mean Surrender.....Ovaries are all the better, so it doesn't change my view of you, at all....in fact, it enhances my view of you, so I guess it does change my view of you.

Afterall....I am The Egg Man.

9/03/2007 03:39:00 PM  
Blogger Dr. Bombay said...

Surrender,
Yeah, I saw that article too..
"Shocking" to say the least no?
However it's the Police in the UK
that have been given the OK to
Taser their children. Thank (insert
your deity of choice here) that I
live in a country were we only force
feed our kids massive doses of
pharmaceutical drugs and shoot them
up with vaccines that are full of
Mercury..Perhaps my good friend
"Dot" is online and can give us
a British citizens take on this
sorry state of affairs.

9/03/2007 03:42:00 PM  
Blogger Shrubageddon said...

Yeah, Dot, what syas you about how our Foundling Fodders kicked your scissy Parents back across the Atlantic where they and you belong!! Huh? I can't hear you, tough guy?? Whaddya think about that ass-whoopin our Sugar Daddies gave your whimpy-ass Foreskins....I mean Forefathers?

9/03/2007 03:48:00 PM  
Blogger surrender said...

DR BOMBAY:

Sorry, I thought you lived in the UK. I assume you don't live in the US as I seemed to have read that lately.

Anyway, just a qickie that is more personal and unrelated to this discussion.

The founder of TREES FOR LIFE is Balbir Mathur and he is from India. This organization has impacted many lives here in Haiti.

treesforlife.org

Thanks for all you have contributed here. Keep it up...



SHRUB:

Why are you confusing me with EVE??? She is much more articulate and to the point and flirts a whole lot better than me.

And where has she been lately??

miss you... EVE

Thanks for the link. I was in high school in 1964 and cried sometimes when I heard that song, and I actually cried a few tears today. REALLY, THANK YOU!!!


JEEZ!! SHRUB go easy on DOT or he might dissapear. We need folks like him to remind us how much bullshit people still believe in as the truth.

Now I am really done for today.

CHEERS to JEFF!!!!!

9/03/2007 04:17:00 PM  
Blogger Dr. Bombay said...

Shrub!
What?...Ya think I was going
to let slip another opportunity to
make you cry like a little...Bush?
I just needed a little time to sober
up -man those injuns can knock back
the gin- and do a little research
on Steven Malik Shelton..You know,
the Gentlemen/Former Black Panther
who you chose to quote from.
Lets go back a couple of posts shall
we?

Shrub..you said: "What I posted
was a direct refutation of your
earlier points in regards to the
Foundless Dipshits."

Er..Actually.. no.. it wasn't.
You of course were referring to
your previous statement that went:
"Before the Founding Fathers
Genocided them" ie: Native American
Indians.
First..You imply in that last
statement that the Founding Fathers
were solely responsible for the
eradication of the American Indian.
And then you trot out the article
"The Myth of American Democracy"
by Mr. Shelton to back up the claim. If you had read my reply
post carefully, you would have
understood that I never said that
SOME of the people involved in the
formation of the US hadn't been
been complicit in the killing of
Native Americans. Of course they
were! But the FACTS are that
Europeans had been killing Indians
in the Americas for almost 200
years BEFORE Jefferson and Company
came on the scene and continued to
kill them for almost another
hundred years after they - the FF'ss
- died.
Now Shrub..Where did I get this
information? Why, from your buddy..
Steven Malik Shelton!
Because, dear boy, if you had taken
the time to read - like I did -
the article by Mr. Shelton entitled
"American Genocide" on the link you
sent, he concurs with my assessment
that the Spanish and Portuguese
murdered far more Native Americans
than the FF's. According to Mr.
Shelton the Spanish killed five or
six times the number of Indians
that the white settlers did.
As many as 100 million were killed
before the U.S. was even a country!
So..there you have it Shrub.
Your own source agrees with my
argument..not yours.
By the way..if you go to Mr. Maliks
website you will find other charming articles as well. There
is one written by a Mr. Hamilton
that includes the statement:
"Europeans are from God to the
world but not as a gift, but as
punishers of the original Man."
Whew..no bias there eh?
Shrub I believe there is a book
called "The White Mans Burden"
that deals with the guilt that many
whites feel about the atrocious way
that we have treated minorities
for the last 500 years. I think
it would be good therapy for you.
Now..to your question of "what
smoking dope and drinking Martinis
with your Indian friends have to
do with it? It is meant to prove a
point?" Well..Yes..it does. And it
is this: Even though one of the most vicious wars between the early
English settlers and Native
Americans took place right here in
Rhode Island - The King Phillips
War - my Narragansett Indian friends are kind enough not to hold
me, a white European, responsible
for murders that took place long
before my ancestors stepped off the
boat that brought them here. Their
kinda smart like that..know what
I mean Shrub?
And by the way Shrub...nobody calls
it "dope" anymore..that's so...
DEA'ish.

Hey! The Author..
Thanks for the link to
the American Monetary Institute..
There is a GREAT article on that
website titled "Is the Federal
Reserve system part of the U.S.
Government?" It basically confirms
all the points Aaron Russo made
in his film: America-From Freedom
To Fascism.
Well...there was a point I wanted to make about Howard Zinn's
interpretation of the Constitution,
but this post is already way to
long and it's after five o'clock
and there's one bottle left of cold
Bombay Sapphire Gin in the freezer
so...Mr. Zinn will have to wait..

wwwdotnet..Are we still on for
Bangers and Mash? oxox

9/03/2007 06:03:00 PM  
Blogger Shrubageddon said...

Bombay,

You can't be serious with that post, can you? Of course you can't....some dope is good...too much is not good, as you have aptly proven.

I feel no guilt, whatsoever, for what occurred to minorities in the past (I do feel immense empathy towards their awful plight). See, it wasn't me that did it...and I don't hold those who did do it in High Esteem...as you appear to do...but I don't suspect you feel any guilt either, nor should you, unless, of course, you are an apologist for the genociding Bastards. I could care a Wit who killed more...the Spanish or the English...the fact of the matter is, the European Conquest of the Americas purposely destroyed Indian Culture and Society...and in many cases, they were wonderful, Egalitarian Societies (at least in North America). The Founding Fathers were a part of that ilk...and they directly benefited from that destruction, and in that regard they are no more enlightened than the predatory Beast In The Bush. How disgustingly ironic that these assholes had the gaul to call the Indians Savages.

And as far as your Indian friends are concerned, regardless of your reasoning, it has no relevance. They have been thoroughly assimilated and bare no resemblance to their ancestors and the terrible Holocaust they encountered. It's nothing a little dope and alcohol won't cure, right? Interesting about the alcohol...especially when you consider it was a tactic used by the "Pioneers" to destroy Indian Communities.

Good work, old chum. As if I didn't know that the Spanish killed more Indians....but now we know, for those who were keeping score.

And, how laughable....the term "dope" is out-of-fashion....if only you had the depth to apply the same standard to the term "Founding Fathers."

9/03/2007 06:31:00 PM  
Blogger Dr. Bombay said...

Shrub,
You forgot to include in your
post how I completely destroyed
your silly argument. I'll let it slide...this time..however the next
time it happens I will demand
an apology. Good Day Sir!!

9/03/2007 06:52:00 PM  
Blogger ericswan said...

One thing you won't find at your links is the genociding of the buffalo. The last free herd in North America was driven south and east at the Montana, Alberta border by a series of forest fires in 1882. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

You should be thinking bio-fuel right about now.

9/03/2007 07:09:00 PM  
Blogger Shrubageddon said...

Shrub said

"It's not what The Founding Father's intended." Give me a fuckin break!! The Founding Fathers?? They ain't my fuckin Fathers and they didn't found anything...they murdered and stole for what they have. They were no more enlightened than the Beast of the Bush over which they cliam superiority.


Bombay said

Shrub,
You said that the "Founding
Fathers" were no more enlightened
than Bush. That doesn't fly. As much as you may disagree with the methods
that were used by the people who
formed this country, (and yes I have
read A People's History Of The
United States) they were masters of
oration and the English language.
George Bush is...not.


Shrub said

I believe in, and want an Egalitarian Social System similar to what what many of the Native American Indians had before the Founding Fathers, great chaps that they were, genocided them, but to believe that creating such a system wihtout the current system meeting its demise via a calamity, is delusional.


Bombay said

First off..you were wrong when
you made the statement that the
Founding Fathers ie: Jefferson,
Washington, Franklin, Adams etc.
were responsible for the "genocide"
of the Native American Indians.
Most of the Native Americans in the
Eastern part of the continent were
wiped out in the 1600's and early
1700's. And the plains and western
tribes not until the 1800's. The
Spanish were responsible for
killing most of the indigenous
peoples of the Americas.


Bombay said

You have to look
at history in the context of the
times that those people were living
in. We abhor their policies, as we
should, looking back in hindsight.
But as they say..hindsight is 20/20. And do you really believe
that they were unaware that the
system that they were living in
benefited a few at the expense of
the many? Of course they were aware
of it. And that's why they decided
to do something about it.


Steven Malik Shelton

Although it has been explained by apologists that they were merely caught up in the historical forces and traditions of the time, there is an abundance evidence to support the view that they were avid racists who theorized and implemented doctrines of white supremacy, exhibited callous disregard for the human rights of African and indigenous people, and provided ammunition for subsequent generations of American and European racists and the ideologies for institutions of racism and oppression.


Steven Malik Shelton

Since George Washington and Thomas Jefferson are synonymous with the establishment of the United States and the mythic traditions of the founding fathers, it is important to briefly examine their lives in the light of their words, actions, and sentiments as they applied to people of color.

At age 16, George Washington became a surveyor for a wealthy Englishman, named Fairfax. From his vantage point of witnessing the scandalous means with which Fairfax acquired his five million acres, he quickly devised his own schemes to steal land from the Natives. Later when Washington fought on the side of the British against the indigenous people in the "French and Indian War" he was rewarded with thousands of acres of "Indian" land on the south bank of the Ohio River. Washington would simply venture into large stretches of "Indian’ land, scrutinize it for what he perceived as the most valuable and desirable areas, and seize it by ridding it off its Native population utilizing whatever means available, fair or foul.

In 1763, the British monarchy issued a proclamation which prohibited white settlers and land speculators from going west of the Allegheny mountains and ordered that white settlers who were already there "remove themselves." However, with the inception of the American Revolution all bets were off, which afforded Washington the opportunity to rob the Natives of their lands, their wealth, and (in some instances) their very lives.

At the time of Washington’s death in 1799, he owned 40,000 acres of land that he had plundered from the indigenous peoples, and 317 Africans that he had forced into perpetual bondage. We get an account, in Washington’s own words, of how he dealt with the Native people, simply because he looked upon them as inferior beings who stood in the way of his land acquisitions and his grandiose vision of white dominance.


George Washington

"The expedition you are appointed to command is to be directed against the hostile tribes of the Six Nations of Indians with their associates and adherents. The immediate objective is their total destruction and devastation and the capture of as many persons of every age and sex as possible. It will be essential to ruin their crops now on the ground, and prevent their planting more...Parties should be detached to lay waste all (Indian) settlements around...that the country may not be merely overrun, but destroyed.


I think that sums it up, nicely. As anyone with half a brain can see, I use the verb "genocided." Bombay deceitfully changed the verb into a noun and inserted words in my mouth. Je said I said "the genocide." Who owes who an apology? You make the call.

I know one thing, I feel no guilt, only empathy, and I am no apologist. I know another thing. Bombay has engaged in American Exceptionalism which is precisely the thesis of Zinn's book, A People's History.

Also, I couls care a WIT that a Black Panther penned the refutation of your lame argument of exceptionalism. I do, however, find it interesting you had to call that out. What would motivate you to do such a thing? Afterall, it's the words that matter, not the political ideology of the person who penned them. The words are what attracted me...not the person....but now that you mention it, how about we highlight his parting words from that article....because they are especially salient, as I'm sure most would agree.

I hope that this article will influence those who are sincere and earnest to re-examine long held beliefs, and to seek out the truths behind the myths of American democracy and the struggle for human dignity, human equality, and human rights. Perhaps, if we can honestly look at where we came from, we can more clearly see in what direction we need to go.

9/03/2007 07:56:00 PM  
Blogger Dr. Bombay said...

Shrub,
I know absolutely nothing about
you, except for this.. you can't
admit when your wrong. For you to
re-post what amounts to the entire
thread of our conversation shows
what a desperate individual you
truly are. Do you really think
anyone but you or I cares what
started this pissing match? If you
do, not only are you desperate -
you are delusional as well.
And in the future Shrub, please
refrain from directing ANY comments
in my direction. Respect my posts
and I will respect yours. Believe
me Shrub, it's better for you this
way because...high as a kite and
drunk as a fiddlers fart, my head
is clearer than yours will ever be.
So..once again..I say loudly, in my
best Stephen Colbert voice:
Good Day Sir!!

9/03/2007 08:42:00 PM  
Blogger Brenda said...

Dr. Bombay said...
For you to re-post what amounts to the entire thread of our conversation shows what a desperate individual you truly are. Do you really think anyone but you or I cares what started this pissing match? If you do, not only are you desperate - you are delusional as well.

Well that's pretty much par for the course around here isn't it Dr Bombay? I mean, this IS a conspiracy blog and along with the forum it attracts mostly paranoid schizophrenics, the actively delusional and an assortment of other psychiatric disorders.

I used to think that maybe there was a pony under all this shit but I've come to realize there most likely isn't. Hence my pissy attitude of late. There are no free energy generators, no Illuminati overlords secretly running the world, no shots fired from the grassy knoll, no alien abductions that a little Prozac can't cure and on and on and on....

On the forums you have Hugh who believes the CIA is talking to him through Google keywords and slimmouse who has swallowed every glib fairy tale David Icke and his ilk ever sold. AND THEN THERE IS ALL CAPS MASONIC PLOT!!!!

It's a madhouse, and you're all welcome to it. I suppose that Jeff thinks he is doing them a favor but really you aren't Jeff. You're just enabling their grand delusions and paranoia.

Now, when I was homeless I didn't mind the schizophrenics because I really do care and I also understand. I also suffer from depression so who am I to say. But here is one thing you never do. You never talk to "littles" or "guards" only the core personality. In the shelter there was a rule of no foul language, no shouting out. You actually harm someone who is mentally ill when you make excuses for them and then let them get away with inappropriate behavior like say... spamming a blog.

BTW, that is probably why your other blog crashed Jeff. You let people write 500 word posts or even longer in your comments. No, Blogger wasn't "persecuting" you. It was most likely your own damn fault.

Rigorous Intuition, what a fucking joke.

9/03/2007 09:55:00 PM  
Blogger Shrubageddon said...

I know absolutely nothing about
you, except for this.. you can't
admit when your wrong.


You have a consistent habit of saying "your" instead of "you're."

I just thought I would let you know so you can avoid further embarassment in the future....not that you care about embarassing yourself. By the way, bragging about your addiction is rather bizarre.....not that I mind bizarre.

Brenda and Bombay....what strange Bedfellows...but nonetheless, a Match Made In Heaven.

Now Howard Zinn is a delusional paranoid. Not sure why you chose my little discussion with Bombay to make your example, Brenda, but it was a poor choice. My stance is perfectly rational, whereas your stance that Dubya is making the decisions is irrational. Can you seriously think that he's calling the shots? If you do, I would say you're the one with the psychiatric disorder.

I'll tell you what, Brenda. Watch this video and tell us who the crazy ones are. I really would like to know your opinion of it.

And unlike you, Bombay, I hold a higher opinion of the folks here, whether I agree with them, or not. I think they do care about our little discussion....and I think a number of them have been following it....but perhaps that's because they're not all high and drunk like you....some of them, surely, but not all of them.

Where is Mark, by the way? I miss your posts, Mark. Please post soon if you're out there.

9/03/2007 10:36:00 PM  
Blogger Dr. Bombay said...

Brenda,
Since you mentioned me by
name, I thought I would rise to the
defense of Jeff and his blog
Rigorous Intuition. I once described
this blog as "the finest, most
thought provoking blog on the net".
And you know what? I still believe
that. Unfortunately for someone like
yourself, who does not suffer fools
easily, Jeff cannot - nor should he -
check IQ's at the door. This blog
is open to anyone with a computer
and a keyboard and there really
aren't any rules per say. But many
times Jeff will post a topic and
that will begin a wonderful
freeform flow of ideas and theories
and bits of information that
eventually coalesce into a whole
that is greater than the sum of its
parts.
Brenda..I know from reading you're
posts that you rely on empirical
evidence, and tend to shun anything
that is not. But if I could impart
to you everything that I have done
and seen in my years on this planet, you would know - beyond
any measure of doubt - that there
is much, much more to our existence
than what we see through the very
small window of our five senses.
By the way, when you were homeless
did you have a dog as a companion?
I did. Homeless dogs are the happiest dogs there are because
they do what dogs really want to
do..namely: roam all day in search
of food, find it, eat it and then
take a nice nap. But don't take
my word for it..Just ask The Dog
Whisperer..

9/03/2007 11:01:00 PM  
Blogger Dr. Bombay said...

And speaking of dogs..

Shrub!
You're like a love sick puppy..
You just can't get your nose out
of my asshole!

For the FINAL time..Good Day Sir!!

9/03/2007 11:15:00 PM  
Blogger ericswan said...

Good for you Brenda.. I think it's important that we know who we are. Your right Shrub. You could say per se that we are following the stream of things. I must be a bit stuned because I really don't see the problem Bombay, hang in there. There's nothing like a scrap at the keyboards.

From my point of view, the Illuminati connection has to go back at least to John Dee as one of the founding fathers. His insistence of placing the capital on the 77 degree first at Jamestown then at Washington and then the pentagram layout of D.C. should be considered as the cornerstone of all that has followed. We are in a class struggle. Instead of going down to the pub to blow off some steam and maybe even mob out into the streets, we duke it out at the keyboard. As long as tptb spell my name with ALL CAPS, i'm property. The internet accomplishes the same thing that polls used to do including "the vote". It is a tool to defuze.

Count yourself lucky. Some good will come of this yet.

9/04/2007 12:47:00 AM  
Blogger just_another_dick said...

"I would suggest that its not only because we make it so damn easy. Our very language and structuring of concepts confers authority to these conceptual salesmen of the common doctrine. Their markets are insured via the fixing of categories. We can make it harder to tweak the strings by making better ‘pictures’ of reality, or new criteria for understanding."

Oh, I agree. Using phrases like "elites" & "PTB" conveys an inherent superiority. By using them, folk place themselves in a subservient position from the outset, thereby making any argument an uphill battle.

But that is our culture, isn't it?

People crave the counsel of "experts" & deem newsreaders "trustworthy" by voice tone & facial expression.

Why do people need to have the news read to them anyway?

"I dare say, people are bored and resort to this dysfunctional shit, because they do not otherwise feel connected to the creative flow of the universe. That is what Dualism does, it locks focus within the objects and gives them hard boundaries. Because peoples focus is mis-directed and reactive mind oriented we miss much opportunity for creative problem solving rumination."

Again, i don't disagree, but why are people's inner lives so easily manipulated?

Blaming it on "Dualism" is fine, but I think you're reading way more into their motives than are really there.

I'd bet that at least half of the folk I work with on a day-to-day basis wouldn't even know what "rumination" meant, let alone "Dualism."

Sounder, I find that I can spend a 16 hour shift where I say maybe 60 words to my fellow staff members.

If you're not willing to talk football, pussy, beer drinking or your spousal dissatisfaction, the conversation material quickly dries up.

I am bloody fucking tired of those topics. I was tired of them 20 years ago.
There are so many interesting things in the world & I am constantly amazed that most folk I meet aren't the least bit curious about any of them.

There are exceptions, like my buddy Rob, a temp I only work with rarely, who is interested in just about everything, but specifically Eastern spiritual traditions & science. We can keep a running dialogue going for 8 hours & the time just jets by. But instances like that are so rare that they're like effing gold to me.

You can blame it all on anything you like but people are totally complicit in their own "disconnection from the creative flow of the universe."

Until that changes, Ron Paul or whomever, isn't going to make that much of a difference in how things turn out.

In my opinion, the only revolutions that ever work are personal ones.
Until people find a need to overthrow the Overlord of their own cherished belief systems the projected "PTB" Overlords, pale shadows of their personal demons, will continue to mold them like so much Play-Doh.

9/04/2007 01:09:00 AM  
Blogger Shrubageddon said...

You just can't get your nose out
of my asshole!


Huh? If there's something in your asshole.....that would be your head. You've been exposed.

9/04/2007 08:08:00 AM  
Blogger Sounder said...

Richard said...

"You can blame it all on anything you like but people are totally complicit in their own "disconnection from the creative flow of the universe."

I tend to like to spread the blame around and by saying people are totally complicit puts to much blame on the individual. I have access to only so much information, and it comes in a shape that is overlaid with contrived commentary. I have a system designed to filter out these contrivances, and still I don't do that much better than my mentally repressed friends.

Most people will mirror their surroundings and take it as a convenient way to claim their connection to reality. So un-conscious living is institutionalized, yet it 'works' because it is mutually validated.

You Richard, someone, who has a greater capacity to integrate information into your conscious model of reality, still have a hard time not lashing out to hit a client (or whatever). The chances for un-conscious acting people, to have positive outcomes must be that much less. Practicality demands that we find our ability to expand the areas to which our conscious models apply, systematized in a way that works for all.

9/04/2007 08:09:00 AM  
Blogger Shrubageddon said...

Using phrases like "elites" & "PTB" conveys an inherent superiority.

Don't forget "Founding Fathers," Richard. That was the whole point of my discussion with Bombay. All these contemporary Rebels consistentlu resort to that term and The Constitution as though the Founding Fathers are God and the Constitution is The Holy Bible. People love their Myths, I suppose, and as you say, so long as they do, nothing will change. Mythos is part of what perpetuates our current destructive paradigm.

I'm not in disagreement with Sounder, but I consider his synopsis every bit as cynical as my take. It would take nothing short of a miracle to change the social order for the positive considering what he considers the current state to be.

9/04/2007 08:39:00 AM  
Blogger surrender said...

Dr BOMBAY, you wrote:


"I have some old friends
coming over for dinner.
Narragansett Indians as a matter
of fact. (I live in Rhode Island).
We love to sit around, have a few
martinis and talk about how rich
the Indian tribes are getting from
the money that that they take in
from the casino's. So Shrub,
the Indians may have lost the battle, but they are certainly
winning the "war"."


Excuse me, but I could not let that one go. Exactly what "war" are you referring to????





........." gambling addiction. Is there a correlation between increased pathological gambling and the growth in tribal casinos? (Pathological gambling is defined as compulsive gambling behavior where it is beyond the control of the individual.) In Minnesota, the number of individuals calling the compulsive gambling hotline increased dramatically over the last three years. All of Minnesota's compulsive gambling treatment centers are full, and the state is considering devoting more resources towards the problem. Furthermore, preliminary evidence suggests that pathological gambling is more prevalent among Indians than non-Indians..[27]

Another negative aspect involves an argument researchers debate: those who can least afford to gamble usually are the most affected. "The poor spent a greater percentage of their income on gambling than the wealthy, giving gambling the same effect on incomes as regressive taxes--the poor are hit the hardest."[28]


Opposition to gambling on the Indian reservations has arisen from both Indians and non-Indians:

Among Indians, bands have been divided over the gambling issue.

Elderly fear losing their traditional values to corruption and organized crime.[30] "...the proliferation of gaming is a spiritual cancer eating away at what is left of the soul of Native American communities."[31] Many of the younger generation see gambling as an opportunity to advance their people; improve life in their community. "...many are willing to face those stakes [corruption and organized crime] for economic salvation.

Casinos are 'one of the first real tools natives have gotten to become self-sufficient,' said Phillip Pelletier, the economic development officer of Fort William First National..."[32]


Since the settlement of America, Native Americans have received the short end of the stick. Settlers continuously encroached upon Native American land, completely disregarding the fact the Indians were there first.

After years of displacing the Indians and fighting with them, the government allotted reservations for the Indians to call their own, how generous!"


SO..... The installment of tribal gambling casino's is THE way for the Native Americans to win the "war" and they only lost the battle????

Now they are forced to imporove their lives by engaging in something that is so far from their traditional beliefs and way of life.....and you call that winning???

9/04/2007 09:33:00 AM  
Blogger surrender said...

SHRUB AND IC:

Would you please read this article and give your opinion???

Shrub: I remember you mention you work in the corporate world. Is this possible????


http://www.alternet.org/workplace/61104/

9/04/2007 10:56:00 AM  
Blogger Dr. Bombay said...

Surrender,
Well to them it is
"winning" because most of the tribes
are using the money to rebuild their
cultures with the revenue they take in from silly white people that have no
self control. In a way its almost
a form of reparations. Let me give
you an example..
The Pequot Indians, right next door
in Ledyard, Conn. were virtually
extinct as a tribe. At one point,
there were less than 30 known full
blooded Pequot Indians alive. But
through a quirk in the law, and
possibly because the white power
structure felt guilty about what
they had done to them, they were
allowed to run a cash bingo hall
as long as it was run on their
reservation. Well, some very smart
members of the tribe realized that
if the State Govt. gave them the
OK for one form of gambling, surely
ALL forms of gambling must be legal
as well.
What I find interesting, is that
their were so few Pequots left
that they were not even recognized
as a real tribe by the State and
Federal Govt. For all intents and
purposes they were starting from
scratch as a people and as a tribe.
They sued to win recognition as
a tribe, won their court case,
and the rest, as they say, is
history. Twenty years later
Foxwoods Resort Casino is the
most successful Casino on earth.
According to some people they take
in $100,000,000.00 A MONTH just
in slot machine revenue alone.
Now sure..they had some help.
They didn't know jack about running a big time gambling
operation so they partnered with
people who were already in the
business to get them up and
running. But make no mistake about
it, all decisions made regarding
the running of the operations are
made by the elder council of the
Pequots and all upper management
positions are filled solely by
Pequots. In the not to distant
future ALL revenue from the Casino
will be wholly controlled by the
tribe minus, of course, the portion
paid to the state. I have been to
Foxwoods and it really is a
beautiful place. I don't gamble,
but my friends and I like to ride
our bikes up and have dinner. We
take the back roads and its a
wonderful ride through the New
England countryside. And by the
way..The Pequots have spent tens
of millions of dollars researching
and rebuilding their culture and
tribe. They are a cultural and
financial force in eastern Conn.
They are buying up land as fast
as they can and they have, in
essence, regained everything they
lost and then some. As far as
organized crime is concerned, they
have no pull whatsoever when it
comes to the tribe. You have to be
a Pequot Indian to be involved with
the casino, period.

9/04/2007 12:23:00 PM  
Blogger Shrubageddon said...

I can't believe what I'm hearing. Apparently, you didn't understand Surrender's point. They're no diiferent than the "white man" and they bare no resemblance to what made their ancestors wonderful and unique.

Castro got rid of the Gambling for a reason...well, several reasons, but a big one is that it is poison to your people.

Reparations....are you joking? First, you say they're not resntful about what happened to their ancestors, then you tell us they're exacting blood money by bilking saps of their very last dollar. Gee, that's nice. If you can't beat them, join them...but then you are no longer who you were, instead you are now "them."

Surrender, perhaps instead of planting trees in Haiti you can study the Indian Casino Model and plant Casinos in Haiti. What do you think?

Can you really rebuild a culture? I don't think so, but you can sure as hell pretend.

9/04/2007 12:37:00 PM  
Blogger Dr. Bombay said...

Obviously there are some people
commenting on this topic of
American Indians who seem to
have gotten their knowledge from
watching Disney's Pocahontas.

9/04/2007 01:35:00 PM  
Blogger Brenda said...

Shrubageddon said...
Castro got rid of the Gambling for a reason...well, several reasons, but a big one is that it is poison to your people.

And there you have it, the true mind of the conspiracy theorist. It's just another face of bigotry and racism. "Your people" just can't handle those twin demons of gambling and firewater and a bunch of sand ni**ers from the middle east could have never pulled off 9-11 so of course it had to have been one of us.

ericswan said...
Good for you Brenda.. I think it's important that we know who we are.

Who am I to question your own personal judgment that puts you in with the delusional and the paranoid that post here?

Shrubageddon said...
Now Howard Zinn is a delusional paranoid. Not sure why you chose my little discussion with Bombay to make your example, Brenda, but it was a poor choice. My stance is perfectly rational, whereas your stance that Dubya is making the decisions is irrational. Can you seriously think that he's calling the shots? If you do, I would say you're the one with the psychiatric disorder.

I'll tell you what, Brenda. Watch this video and tell us who the crazy ones are. I really would like to know your opinion of it.


Riiiiiight... because of MKULTRA, which was very bad of course, therefore George bush is a mind controlled slave of the Illuminati who secretly run everything.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!!!!!!!

Why don't you tell me how when you take drugs your hallucinations are REAL MAAAAAANN.

And of course, because I think such ideas are delusional means that I can't possibly admire Howard Zinn or have a liberal bone in my body. Unless I believe that in 2012 the aliens will descend and save us all and the reptilians will pour out of their underground lairs beneath the Denver air port, unless I believe all the shit you people believe, I can't possibly be an open minded intelligent liberal.

Wrong.

9/04/2007 02:42:00 PM  
Blogger surrender said...

Dr BOMBAY:

An opinion from a Native American who didn't get his info from a Disney movie.

It happens to be the point of view that I support. We cannot always agree, but we can allow for all points to be expressed without tactless attacks and inuendos that get us nowhere. Time will tell....



"Another similarly discussed, but never resolved issue in Indian country is to how best balance traditional cultural practices and moral belief systems with economic development. This idea of balance has been central to the debate over gaming on the Hopi Reservation in Arizona as well as on the Navajo Reservation which surrounds them.

Both nations have chosen to reject gaming as a source of revenue because for them, the question takes on an either/or sensibility.

Either you value your culture and moral values above all else, or you support economic development with the knowledge that culture will be inevitably compromised to one degree or another.

While this may seem rigid and anti-progressive to some people, it is a very real concern to may of the traditional people whose reality exists outside the world of profit margins and economic theory.

So does gaming on reservations represent a new hope for an economic resurgence in Indian country? Maybe, but at best, it's still an unsure bet, and tribes should know the risks before entering into any agreement with any outside corporation, investors, or government. I want to be clear that I'm not saying that Indians have to be poor in order to be "real" Indians, or that casinos are "bad"; so we shouldn't have them. However, it is my fear that many tribes have rushed into these ventures without a clear understanding of what they wanted to gain from their involvement with gaming, aside from the vague assumption that more money means less problems.

Finally, without the right leadership, discussion, and understanding of gaming and all its implications, the ubiquitous construction of casinos on Indian lands across the continent could prove the most destructive and divisive element introduced to Native culture since Christopher Columbus brought the small-pox.



*Clay Akiwenzie, Junior in North American Indian Studies
Saugeen Ojibway, Cape Croker Reserve, Ont.

9/04/2007 02:44:00 PM  
Blogger frank said...

What happened to this blog? you've out Doug Thompson'ed Doug Thompson.

You went from interesting wordsmith with a novel take on the world scene to a cheap seat Hillary Clone knock off.

How the mighty have fallen.

9/04/2007 03:31:00 PM  
Blogger surrender said...

BRENDA:

I am convinced from your last post that I truly only am interested in bullshit and you are an extremely open-minded and very intelligent liberal.

I am a human being who cares a great deal about the state of the world and how it effects all of us. I do what I can as an idividual to make a difference and maybe bring some light and love to those who suffer from lack of basic human needs.


I am not engaging in a conspiracy and I speak for most of us here at RI.

There were many things I had discovered on my own before discovering RI.

What Jeff has done for me and others who post here has been very valuable to me for one reason. The things I have been aware of for many years I have found are reflected and discussed here. We are sharing ideas and concepts that have a common thread inspired by Jeff. There are thousands of blog sites that reflect your points of view and would welcome your angry, insulting way of making yourself right.

It is hard enough to deal with the death and destrucion that is happening all over the world and how it effects each of us as individuals.

You are RIGHT, you are so Right, as in Righteous. Thank you for your point of view but I am not getting that it is appreciated much here. Why do this to yourself and others if it makes no difference?

Anyway, JEFF...........where are you??

9/04/2007 04:11:00 PM  
Blogger wwwdotnet said...

Shrubageddon said -

"Yeah, Dot, what syas you about how our Foundling Fodders kicked your scissy Parents back across the Atlantic where they and you belong!! Huh? I can't hear you, tough guy?? Whaddya think about that ass-whoopin our Sugar Daddies gave your whimpy-ass Foreskins....I mean Forefathers?"

well, firstly I'm glad my forefathers never unraveled their foreskins to give rise to me or my family on your troublesome and doomed shores.

And, I reply with with your own quote, slightly edited -


"I feel no SHAME, whatsoever, for what occurred to MY FOREFATHERS in the past (I do feel immense GRATITUDE towards their LUCKY plight). See, it wasn't me that GOT KICKED...and I don't hold those who GOT KICKED in High Esteem...as you appear to do..."








Bombay-

Still on for the mash, the bangers will be freshly tazered and served electrified.







Surrender said -

"JEEZ!! SHRUB go easy on DOT or he might dissapear. We need folks like him to remind us how much bullshit people still believe in as the truth."

And I guess we need people like you to remind us how this blog can be at times an intellectually elitist club that preaches to the converted. And so sad you had to use me as some kind of shared boxing cushion to bond with your beloved Shrub.

All that you guys strive for is utterly doomed if you don't have room for some naivety, and shoot it down so quickly. I am young and naive, and find this blog a great source of education in my ongoing journey. I am in a position where I can reach many people through my chosen medium already, and this will increase in time. I am trying to slowly gather information, and an understanding, and then make this digestible to the general public which i think many of you seem to forget about, which is just as bad as those Evil men at the top you so frequently talk about. My naivety is important. I am learning, and through this I understand where others come from, and how to make people understand things better, by expressing things more powerfully than text on a screen ever will.

So if you think I am believing in bullshit, just have the heart to set me straight with some links which I would love to receive. I have asked before in fact, for some links from people, and was ignored, the post may not have been read, i dunno.





Syn Diesel-

Thanks for the link, still no time to check, will have full fledged HTML posts very soon.







Sorry for the agro. x

9/04/2007 07:40:00 PM  
Blogger Shrubageddon said...

Hey Dot,

It was Satire.....not personal, in the least. Your prejudice allowed you to take it as such. It was made in jest to Bombay's following comment:

And as far as their methods were
concerned, this wasn't a round of
golf and martinis in the clubhouse.
They took on the worlds biggest
superpower and kicked their ass
all the way back across the
Atlantic.


I suspected few would get it....people see what they like to see....not necessarily what's there.

9/04/2007 08:23:00 PM  
Blogger Shrubageddon said...

Dot,

I will observe you for several months to a year before I make a judgement about you. Time will tell. If you're a fraud, you will show your true colors soon enough. Maybe you're just here to Pass The Dutchie On The Left Hand Side with our resident Spicoli. What Jefferson was saying was, Hey! You know, we left this England place 'cause it was bogus; so if we don't get some cool rules ourselves - pronto - we'll just be bogus too! Get it?

9/04/2007 08:37:00 PM  
Blogger Belliosto said...

Syn Diesel Representative Ron Paul may be a good choice as an elected president but common sense tells me that a one percent rating in the polls means he will not be elected president. There is no reason to get worked up because you believe he will be the best president ever. Seriously most people who will vote for him vote out of conscience not because they feel he has a chance to win. Do you believe he will be our next president?

I can call you moronic because you do not consider voting for me, Belliosto, as the next president of the United States. Again he may be the best choice but clearly common sense tells the most devoted to him that he simply will not be president in 2009. Is this his third attempt? Or second attempt?

9/04/2007 08:47:00 PM  
Blogger et in Arcadia ego Eve said...

I'm here Surrender. I've been sorta busy spraying air freshener around all the spook poop that's being left in my lovely blog.

Plus also, I've been sorta mad at Shrubbery for failing to show me enough luv, but his inadvertant "Eve" murmurings tell me that I am still solidly on his mind.

9/04/2007 09:06:00 PM  
Blogger Shrubageddon said...

Belliosto,

You're my write-in candidate. I promise....you've got my vote, and I'm certain you'd be a much better President than Ron Mrs. Pauls, George Bush, Iraq Osamma, Sir Hillary Clinton, Catcher's Mitt Romney, Rudolph The Brown Nosed Reindeer Juliani, John McCain and Abel and John Eddy Munster Edwards combined.

9/04/2007 09:09:00 PM  
Blogger Shrubageddon said...

Hey Dot,

You asked for some links...so here's a great one to start.

These folks are solid and they care about family and freedom. I suggest you join, even if you're not American, because family and freedom are Universal values. Please donate to them as soon as you can. They need every penny. No need to thank me.

Regards,

Shrubageddon

9/04/2007 09:16:00 PM  
Blogger et in Arcadia ego Eve said...

Surrender,

See what I mean? He just ignores me. He calls out for me - I come to him and then he pretends I'm not here, focusing instead on useless politics.

Wouldn't it be more fun to focus on a naked woman?

Eve

9/04/2007 09:23:00 PM  
Blogger Belliosto said...

Shrub I consent. I would rather see you run as prez. I instead after thinking about it have considered the office of vice president. Much less stressful. To each his own. hahahahahahahahahahahaha

Ron Paul betrayed the Libertarians when he jumped ship and became the enemy a Republican. Think about the loyal Libertarians back in the late eighties and nineties. He was their presidential candidate and then he became a Republican. Can not that be considered treasonous to the most faithful of Libertarians? Now this is not a stupid remark. He probably hurt a lot of Libertarians' feelings when he jumped ship.

Like from Green Party to Democratic Party. No broken hearts? No social confusion? No hopelessness? This stuff is no different than Shiite and Sunnite Middle East politics. You are a liberal. You are a conservative. We must unite together. We must vote to believe in America. Voting is clean and good. We can trust in our government. It is all about party, party, party politics. And of course money and power. It is the same old thing again and again. Money talks people listen. At the high level of presidency you are caught in a hopeless situation. It is which big money element is to be served contrary to the people. Again this is not a stupid remark. This is historical and contemporary. It is all about me, myself, and I no matter how you slice it. It is not about representation of common people rich or poor. No sir. It is not.

9/04/2007 09:36:00 PM  
Blogger just_another_dick said...

Random Bunkerisms & O'Reilly-isms & just a silly dick-isms:

If one facet of the Monarch Project is to blackmail public officials with photographic evidence of toddler pronging, why would anyone in their right mind think that was necessary?

Anyone willing to shtup little kids would probably be down for just about anything.

I mean, would the conversation go something like this:

Blackmailer: "We need your support."

Blackmailee- "Look, I may have made the beast with two backs with little Jimmy & little Susie, but goddammit, I have my standards. Fuck your North American Free Trade Agreement. I'll never sign off on it. Never, never, never, never, never.

Blackmailer: "We have the photos."

Blackmailee: "You insidious fiends. Where's my pen?"



&

If humanity is basically reduced to horrific behavior due primarily to the uneven distribution of wealth, then why aren't rich folk, who never have to worry about food, shelter,etc., the nicest, most well adjusted motherfuckers on the planet?


&

Since Wilhelm Reich has attained martyr status due to poor treatment by the FDA, why didn't he just submit his Orgone contraptions for rigorous peer reviewed testing instead of selling them on his own & avoid all the poor treatment he had to see coming?

I know the FDA is part of the "Law & Order Triumvirate of Demons," but Reich had to be aware of the legions of quack cures that led to the FDA's formation.
Such cures as:

Chichester's Pennyroyal Pills. Pennyroyal is an abortificant, and while there was no mention in the ads of abortion, most women knew what pennyroyal was for. There was one problem though, there was no pennyroyal in the pills.

Mother's Friend. This product, packaged by the Bradfield Regulator Company of Atlanta, promised to "shorten the duration of labor," and "assist in a safe and quick delivery"
Ingredients of Mother's Friend: Oil and a little soap.

And then their was the American Health College, run by John Bunyan Campbell, whose "vitapathic" treatment consisted of applying copper plates to the feet of patients so as to draw the poison out of them.

After years of granting worthless medical diplomas he was finally hauled before a judge. Campbell's answers to prosecutor's questions makes Clinton's waffling on the "definition of is" sound downright reasonable.

Q:Within the last few years of your practice of vitapathy, what class of cases have you treated?

A: Well, mostly pulling out poisons on our copper plate. We ain't curing disease at all; the person may not have any disease. He is simply full of poison don't you see?

Q: What do you consider poisons doctor?

A:Well, calomel is poison; strychnine is poison; iron is poison.

Q: Would you consider disease germs poison in the same case?

A: Well, I have a different idea of germs from most everybody else.

Q: How would you destroy disease germs in the patient?

A: My idea is the germ is not the cause of the disease at all, but the disease is the cause of the germs.You will never get any germs in anybody until there is a separation or decomposition there, something. Put that down, you old doctors, that germs don't make disease?

Q: What would cause the disease, doctor?

A: They didn't have the disease; they simply had the poison, and I pulled it out.

Q: You say the disease was the cause of the germs?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: What causes the diseases?

A: Well, persons are liable off-hand to disease the world over, of course.


Of course. It's...it's all so clear now.



&

If science appears dogmatic & stand-offish when confronted with ufos, paranormal experiences, creationism, etc., isn't this perfectly understandable given the fact that science & rational thought haven't had much of a shelf life when compared with centuries upon centuries of rule by superstition?

I mean, just taking the ancestors of creationists alone, who had the annoying tendency to execute anyone who would bring up rational quibbles with their philosophical construct, maintaining a respectful distance seems to be a wise course of action on the scientist's part.

Oh, scientists may poke fun at the paranormally inclined, calling them silly or loony, even worse yet, downright nerdy, but I have yet to see the scientist who publicly suggests that we should burn, say, a creationist at the stake.

I know insults are so hurtful that one can barely muster oneself out of bed to confront them, but I'd say the spiritually inclined would be best served by getting a little perspective. Maybe repeating, over & over, "Sticks aflame & burned I'll be, but names will never hurt me."

&

An African ex-pats( my friend Chris) lesson about Democracy Zambian-style versus Democracy American-style:

Zambian Democracy: Citizen says, " Frederick Chiluba sucks eggs!"
Nothing happens to citizen

American Democracy: Citizen says: "George Bush sucks eggs!"
Nothing happens to citizen.

Zambian Democracy: Citizen again says, "Frederick Chiluba sucks eggs!"
Citizen is visited by Mr. Chiluba's associates who explain to citizen how Mr. Chiluba didn't appreciate being lumped in with egg-suckers & the citizen best desist from future egg-sucking comments.

American Democracy: Citizen again says, "George Bush sucks eggs!"
Nothing happens to citizen.

Zambian Democracy: Foolishly, citizen again says, "Frederick Chiluba sucks eggs!"
Citizen disappears, never to be seen again.

American Democracy: Citizen is free to associate George Bush & egg-sucking until he tires or George Bush dies & nothing appreciable will happen to him.

&

If, as stated here and by such luminaries as Robert Anton Wilson And Phillip Dick, the Holy Roman Empire never died & the American Empire is just the latest disguise worn by this ancient evil, then what, exactly, did the "Founding Fathers" found?

9/04/2007 11:50:00 PM  
Blogger Dr. Bombay said...

Surrender,
You know I wasn't referring
to you when I made that comment
about Disney's Pocahontas, because
if it was I would have directed it
to you by name. Just to clarify,Yes?
I like the article you posted. It
has balance and makes an effort to
see all sides of the issue of Gaming
Revenue, and how it might impact the
traditional values of a tribe.
It is cheering that the Hopi and
Navajo tribes are doing well enough
financially to be able to have a choice in the matter. For the
Pequots however, the situation
was quite different. Their choice
was virtual extinction as a tribe
vs Gaming Revenue. I know your not
a big fan of western style
capitalism Surrender but remember,
it's not money that is the root of
all evil, it's the LOVE of money
that is the root of all evil.
If you received a check tomorrow
from the Pequots for $10 million,
no strings attached, to buy more
tree's would you accept it?
I'll take that as a yes.

Surrender...you said in your post:
"We cannot always agree, but we
can allow for all points to be expressed without tactless attacks
and innuendoes.." I agree..But
that should work both ways, right?
Well..perhaps you should scroll
back a bit in the comments to
where you told wwwdotnet that he
was full of shit.Now he has only
posted a couple of times, so...how
would you really know? I guess his
remarks didn't reach an acceptable
level of discourse to be deemed
worthy so it's OK to insult him?
Like I said, that works both ways
right? Well I happen to know a
little bit about him, and I can
assure that he is quite a clever lad, and he showed that when he put both you and shrub in your place
in his reply post. Well done, mate.
So...Lets put everyone on notice
shall we Surrender? If you dish
it out...you'd better make damn
sure you can take it. And when
it comes to me...you better have
your shit especially straight.
But I think we all know that know,
don't we?

9/05/2007 01:13:00 AM  
Blogger Dr. Bombay said...

wwwdotnet..
Is it too late to get my
Bangers medium-well tasered?

Cheers

9/05/2007 01:57:00 AM  
Blogger Belliosto said...

just another dick the Founding Fathers may have set up a land that can be used as a base to go every place else in the world. The United States enabled Africa with her slaves. US enabled Europe with trade. It may have been founded to establish a place most beneficial for world commerce. Without D.C.'s okay ambitious industrialists are limited in their profit making schemes. The influence of Washington D.C. and Industrialists work hand in hand for the Global Management System. We can thank American Industrialists and Financiers for planting the seeds of modern-day world commerce. Without the Federal City's political base assisting all the way it could never have been accomplished. Was London as influential as the District of Columbia politically applying to world trade? D.C. was and is the powerhouse city that enables this commerce for the super rich. Maybe this was one of the esoteric reasons that USA was founded way back when.

The government has gone so far as to physically infiltrate the Middle East. This is a secret of America. A land of people where there is no limits to where these people can go. The exoteric secular ideals of the Founding Fathers have been totally betrayed. America is spread out all over the world. We have military bases everywhere. This is possibly part of a puzzle that you might be looking for just another dick? No. ???

9/05/2007 02:17:00 AM  
Blogger Dr. Bombay said...

Frank!
"How the mighty have fallen"?
Jeeez..How long have you been
waiting to throw that one out there?
I guess you weren't here last month
when Red Tory stopped by to tell
a few jokes and bestow on Jeff's
blog an award for being one of the
Five Best Blogs On The Net. And
Frank..c'mon..Profile Not Avalible?
Thats weak..very weak..

9/05/2007 02:29:00 AM  
Blogger Fructedor said...

wwwdotnet - more power to you. There's an incredible amount of information available, thanks to the Internet, on just about anything that might interest you. Some of it will be good, some crazy, and there will be a lot of confused people clinging to some of it like an overload of ballast, claiming that this is theirs.

I wouldn't presume to give you advice, but in my experience, snobs are of little use to anyone. To thine own self be true - you already know where you're going.

One link I found very interesting was HawksCafe - this 'forensic economist' gives another point of view altogether on 911.

It was good to see Cymatics discussed here recently - the original Hans Jenny films may still be available via Google Video - worth watching.

Best wishes


Fructedor

9/05/2007 04:54:00 AM  
Blogger Sounder said...

Brenda, you seem to miss a basic theme on this blog and promoted by Jeff. That is, while anomalies exist that cannot be accounted for using mainstream viewpoints, one must be very careful when looking for where meaning truly resides.

Hey Dot, yours is the sensible attitude.

One hazard to blogging is that you are talking to a self-selected group that thinks it's important that their opinions be heard. Some study the forms with an ear to listen for substance. Some fix the form with their opinion. They flog the dead horse and want you to praise them for it.


Hey shrub, did you miss my last love note to you? OK, here it is again.
Shrub;
“FYI, I don't like the Fragmentation”

Then why, pray tell, would you call perfect strangers,”stormtroopers or rape facilitators”. Sort of precludes you having to consider possible substance within other folk’s ideas. You can say what you like, but you act like you like fragmentation. Or maybe you just prefer a circle-jerk to that other display of homoerotic fixation that you claim everybody else is prone to. (Come-on shrub, that one was funny)

Shrub;
“Am I the odd man out, here?” Bandwagon, -sorry I have no need to get on.

“Does everyone here speak as one and in alignment with some coherent view and approach?”

No, and why should we? Still you seem to do your best to make different style thinkers feel unwelcome here. So I will thank-you to not call my Ron Paul supporting friends, ‘stormtroopers and rape facilitators”. It is not a proper aide for communication or good will, but you know that, don’t you shrub?

Shrub, your ARG thing with you as the alter ego of the real George Bush; -that is ‘dopey’.

And because at all fits together so well,(I am so full of myself.)

Shrub said;

"We're too fragmented, for numerous reasons, and that fragmentation is a seemingly permanent barrier to any meaningful change."

You love the fragmentation shrub; it is the thing that validates your view that the world is insane.

Shrub, you are such a quick-change artist, yes flimflam man. Syn said you are deluded because you said; "Just think guys....and Eve. Under the auspices of Ron Paul, soon you will be able to rape any woman you like without some bureacratic, politically correct Justice System to interfere. I'm sure just the thought of it makes you moist, doesn't it Eve?"

This (disgusting political hack attack) is evidence of disturbance more than delusion. You are deluded not for refusing to "believe Ron Paul is the answer", but rather because because your rhetoric debases the forms so as to cut off any search for substance.

But you already know that, don't you shrub?

Loved that bit shrub where you are so gracious to withold judgment on whether Dot is a fraud. That is a hoot. You Be Da Judge, that's a good one.

Have a cathartic day shrub.

9/05/2007 06:53:00 AM  
Blogger ericswan said...

Hey Dot ..Excellent reposte. One thing you never have to worry about here is that anything with substance never gets debated. Just the ego material is rehashed. And posts like "Frank" put up. We have our monitors here. They just drop in and drop out. Not much to say and no background to say it from. A troll is a troll is a troll.

I'm stil intrigued by the Ron Paul story. Is his is or is he ain't. As usual, Jeff has pulled the sock puppet out of the hat before anyone here knew there was another side to the story. Yes, we have an agenda here but most of us don't appreciate what it is. We just know that whatever we're being spoon fed has to be pablum we can do without.

Richard..as usual you play the fiddle like a violin and didn't even say "snake oil salesman" once. Reich is a bit of a hither slither but I'm still waiting for his will to release his papers 50 years after his death which is incidentally in a couple of months.

And Dot...one last thing. Xerxes...

9/05/2007 09:21:00 AM  
Blogger Shrubageddon said...

Hey Dot,

When you get a chance, head on over to Sounder's Blog and have a read. Let him know your thoughts fater you have finished. I thought I would beat Sounder to the punch on that.......cuz I knew it was coming.

Love,

Shrubageddon

9/05/2007 10:05:00 AM  
Blogger Shrubageddon said...

Richard,

It's a bizarre world out there, isn't it? It is now fashionable to be homelees, or to have been homeless. What an insult to the truly homeless....but that's the way these Narcissists operate.

9/05/2007 10:19:00 AM  
Blogger surrender said...

DR BOMBAY:

BRENDA WROTE:
"Well that's pretty much par for the course around here isn't it Dr Bombay? I mean, this IS a conspiracy blog and along with the forum it attracts mostly paranoid schizophrenics, the actively delusional and an assortment of other psychiatric disorders."


I was referring to these kind of inuendos......


DOT:

you wrote:

"And I guess we need people like you to remind us how this blog can be at times an intellectually elitist club that preaches to the converted. And so sad you had to use me as some kind of shared boxing cushion to bond with your beloved Shrub."

I cannot apologize to you enough.

When I said we need people around like you to remind us of how much bullshit people still believe in....

It was not directed to you personally and it was an unconscious statement by me, due to my realization that so much bullshit is still being fed to people like you and ME.

Discerning what is the truth, as it effects you and me, is extremely difficult in these times and I am not making it any easier for you on your journey, by making statements that might demean who you are.

What I was trying to do is calm down SHRUB a little because his style pokes a lot of egos. I don't know if that is a good thing or not but he can povoke a lot of good out of it, sometimes..
example: your latest post. he heard you, as well as I did.

Just a warning: you may go a little crazy when the veil is lifted. Go within and listen to your inner voice... your own intuition is more valuable than anything anyone else may write or say.

I also reccoment looking at some of the past posts and linking to a few of IC's links. IC rigorously gives a lot of on topic links that have been helpful. And when I first started here I read many of Jeff's past posts on topics that were of interest to me personally.

Again, I apologize.........keep posting.

9/05/2007 12:33:00 PM  
Blogger surrender said...

Hi EVE:

Don't know what's up with Shrub but he is sure fun to play with, except when it gets me in trouble.

Ignoring you might be a good thing..

Keep spraying....

9/05/2007 12:46:00 PM  
Blogger surrender said...

DR BOMBAY:

Please do not assume I would accept 10 million dollars, no strings attatched, from tribal gaming casinos to buy trees.

First, there are no trees in Haiti to buy. We save seeds and buy seeds and start our own trees for planting. We do not need 10 million dollars but when and if we do we will find it from other like-minded sources that support our work.

I might invite one of the tribal elders to come here and speak to the peasants about what is like to lose your culture, your spiritual dignity and your relationship to this Great Mother Earth.

My brother became addicted to gambling a few years ago and lost everything including his family. It was not worth the few HUNDRED dollars he would win and then lose.

I would not except money from an "industry" that is so far from the spiritual teachings of tribal elders.

The money generated from that industry comes from folks like my brother. I just don't see us using other people's money that was lost at the gambling tables, probably money that was needed to support families, pay debts, etc.and use that money to plant trees.

It does something to the spirit to use money taken from others who frivorously lay money on a table and lose it because a wrong number came up. (I am sure some win and probably do good things with the money they win.)

I don't know the stats but my guess is many more people lose than win or the casinos would not be making billions of dollars a year.

Gambling is illegal for a reason in most states. Gambling is illegal in the state my brother is from but not illegal on the River Boats.

I understand your supporting the results of these casinos and the immense amount of money they generate for the tribes. I don't know why I keep up with this discussion either. I guess it is because the spiritual and cultural contribution that Native Americans had to offer the planet was wiped out by the lust and greed of the invaders, who just can't seem to stop invading. I am one person who recognizes and mourns that loss.

Did you know in the Hopi language that God is a Verb not a noun????(thanks IC)

Gambling is legal on the reservations because they are still considered soveriegn territories and still VERY SEPARATE from the Unitied States

And we call them "Native AMERICANS".

9/05/2007 02:02:00 PM  
Blogger Shrubageddon said...

Well siad, Surrender. My sentiments, exactly.

9/05/2007 02:14:00 PM  
Blogger Dr. Bombay said...

Surrender
What a load of politically
correct hypocritical self serving
bullshit you're last post is.
Your holier than thou pious attitude
is something to behold. I deliberately
answered the question of the gift of $10 million in the affirmative
for you because I knew as soon as
you read that your answer would
be exactly the opposite. I'm sincerely
sorry to hear of your brothers
problem, but if we tried to
eliminate any or everything that
one could become addicted to, I
think it would be a lot less fun
around here. Remember what Buddha
said: Attachment is the beginning
of all sorrow. Substitute addiction
for attachment. And really Surrender, why should we who have
a modicum of self control,have to
pay the price for those who do not?
It's called free will. Perhaps
we should exercise it. Did you
know that the Dali Lama likes the
occasional smoke and a glass of
20 year old scotch? You go ahead
and tell him he can't have it.
I'll be the guy having a shot with
him..By the way..Since we have all
read "The Myth of American Democracy" I thought I would
write a little piece that I call
"The Myth of Native American
Egalitarianism". I think we will
all be QUITE surprised by what
my research has uncovered about
the PRE-European history of the
America's. Coming soon to a blog near you..

9/05/2007 03:04:00 PM  
Blogger Shrubageddon said...

It's good to peer beneath the surface....there's so many interesting things just beyond it, as we're finding out.

Please, by all means, Bombay, continue to malign the Indians. No one ever said they were perfect....but they did occupy the Americas for 56,000 years wihtout despoiling the place. Sure, go find your exceptions to the norm, like the champion you are.

9/05/2007 03:29:00 PM  
Blogger matt said...

Gambling is the best!!!
Surrender is a butthole!!!
Word.

9/05/2007 04:08:00 PM  
Blogger surrender said...

Dr BOMBAY:

You wrote:
"Surrender...you said in your post:
"We cannot always agree, but we
can allow for all points to be expressed without tactless attacks
and innuendoes.." I agree..But
that should work both ways, right?
Well..perhaps you should scroll
back a bit in the comments to
where you told wwwdotnet that he
was full of shit."

(correction:I said, "We need folks like him to remind us how much bullshit people still believe in as the truth.")

(I did not say wwwdonet is "full of shit".)

And then you wrote:

"So...Lets put everyone on notice
shall we Surrender? If you dish
it out...you'd better make damn
sure you can take it. And when
it comes to me...you better have
your shit especially straight.
But I think we all know that now,
don't we?"

And this little gem:

"Surrender:
What a load of politically
correct hypocritical self serving
bullshit you're last post is.
Your holier than thou pious attitude
is something to behold. I deliberately
answered the question of the gift of $10 million in the affirmative
for you because I knew as soon as
you read that your answer would
be exactly the opposite."


(Why would you do that???)


And:
".....if we tried to
eliminate any or everything that
one could become addicted to..."


(I don't see where I said gambling
should be eliminated just because some people become addicted.)


I guess you like to get personal in making your point and your point is.....??????



I will refrain from addressing any futher comments to you personally for it is not serving anyone who is visiting here.


I do not have balls or the ego that goes with them, so I really do not need to engage in this kind of rhetoric with you and I won't.


YOU WIN!!!!!!CHEERS!



QUOTE OF THE DAY for all:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRiy4yfh-IM

"There's a War Going on Outside"

9/05/2007 04:45:00 PM  
Blogger surrender said...

ANOTHER QUOTE OF THE DAY:



"Has the era of dualism served its function and are we ready to move towards new sets of questions? Only when good people admit to the error of their acceptance of relative truth as being Absolute Truth, will we as a society advance to a stage where our perceptions of reality and reality itself will exist within a more dynamic and healthy relationship."
SOUNDER

9/05/2007 05:07:00 PM  
Blogger Olaf Olafsun said...

Bombay Gin man:

I think you got a wee bit confused between your Dalai Lama's and your Christopher Hitchenses. Because it's the latter one who likes to have a cigarette in his mouth and an ever-present glass of Scotch in his hand, not ye olde Dalai Lama, who when he visited the Scottish Parliament to spread his message of peace, love and giggling, was asked what Buddhism meant. His reply: "I don’t know", thus prompting one Glaswegian spectator to mutter: "Well, go and find out."

The good old Dalai Lama. He lives in a wee world of his own. He’s big in Buddhism, whose central philosophy may be summarised in the Scottish existentialist expression: "It’s nice tae be nice."

Which you ain't being, Bomby.

The D.L. does emphatically not drink scotch or smoke (references please?)!

But he does like a good turkey sandwich. His doctors have exempted him from the vegetarianism practiced by his followers because of his "need to be strong."

An' I heard him, the D.L., say that with mine own ears, live, right here in the U.S.A.


Take that, I.C. and Shrub, you veggiewimps.

Homo sapiens is an omnivore.

9/05/2007 05:46:00 PM  
Blogger just_another_dick said...

If this blog linked below is typical, I'd say the whole "Native American wisdom" spiel is really over-rated. It's one small step from this to coating yourself with lemon juice to insure invisibility or wearing amulets to protect yourself from bullets.
http://whitebuffalowomangoessinging.blogspot.com/

All quotes from above blog.

"The spider people are coming in 2007. They are here, now. If you have a spider living happily in your home, or spiders living happily nearby, you are safe. Those people that are not safe can look forward to retribution. People who have used chemicals and other unnatural ways that have hurt Earth or her creatures are targeted for being bitten by the insect kingdom for the harm these people have caused.
Here is the warning for all people:
If you are safe, beware of unsafe neighborhoods - you may be bitten. The way to avoid this is to be highly aware of where your feet step. The spiders will announce themselves to the safe people by running out for a happy greeting.
There is another race who I will not identify here, but who will cause great changes with Earth. This race is asking all people to garden and raise plants organically. Places that have been chemicalized heavily will soon bear no more and famine is to be the result in those areas because of the changes this unnamed race will be performing with Earth."

&

"Seismologists have predicted a huge Earthquake December 11, 2008. It will be rated 9 or more on the Richter scale. The epicenter will be Lompoc, California. Untold numbers of people will die because this prediction will not be reported as news."

&

"The bubonic plague will make a comeback in 2008. It is good to talk with the rodent people about this, for the rodent people can protect you and your pets if you discuss this. Prayer and listening to the Divinity within your heart will lead you best. Go slowly. Make your moves after you've dreamed on these moves. Remove your leashes (see other entries to understand this) to think most clearly. Do not run out of fear. There is no need to."

&

"Werewolves will be making a comeback in 2009. 14 million people are to be destroyed by werewolves. These creatures will target very specific individuals, and the werewolves know what they are doing. The average person of good intent will not be harmed unless interfering.

If you happen upon a werewolf, back away slowly and silently. Leave the scene entirely.

Do not scream, hold up a crucifix, watch the scene, try to save the victim, or try to kill the werewolves. The werewolves will not harm you if you happen upon their territory. If you disturb these creatures in any way, you may not survive the encounter, so please just back off! Tell your children that if they see a strange doglike person to be quiet, don't scream, and simply back off quietly and slowly. Then leave the scene far away. Children will not be harmed unless these instructions are not followed.

Be aware that the victim of a werewolf deserves what he or she gets. The scenes of werewolf attacks will be grisly in the extreme. Werewolves do not eat their victims, so there will always be remains. Please understand there is absolutely nothing you can do to save the victim, no matter how easy it looks like you could save the victim. Do not watch such an encounter if you happen to be nearby, for this may be enough for the werewolf to attack you. Werewolf attacks are most horrible deaths.

Even if this prediction sounds hokey or silly to you, teach children how to avoid problems with a werewolf. It might be best to tell the kids stories about the kid who got "eaten" and the kid who survived. Later, have the person repeat back how the kid survived did it. That's all that's necessary for any kid to learn."

&

"The people of Greenland will all die when the Earth reacts in 2011 unless these people get off the island. Go to Holland.The country of Chile will go under the water when the Earth reacts. California too. It is not safe at all in these places when the Earth reacts (predicted by the Mayan civilization to be) in 2011.

I have heard Earth moving, deep inside. The bliss is working. She's getting safer. Let's not let up - keep it up! There's much farther to go. Please know also the more bliss we feel, the safer Earth becomes, and besides the last eight strongholds of humanity, we will be creating the conditions for pockets of survivors. Let us do our best at feeling bliss."

9/05/2007 06:00:00 PM  
Blogger iridescent cuttlefish said...

So many threads within this thread, so much diffraction. It occurs to me that we oftentimes argue past one another, not really taking the time (and the opportunity!) to follow each other’s links and really consider the other’s POV. I know that this becomes difficult when folks like me inject another ten deep links per comment into a given thread, but there is perhaps a way around this problem.

Taking a step back.

This will, I hope, be an uncharacteristically brief essay, so please bear with me. If you’re at all familiar with Daniel Quinn of Ishmael fame, you know this way of questioning the conventional wisdom he’s developed which is based on getting a wide and deep enough perspective on a particularly thorny problem in order to see it in a different light. Usually this involves questioning the assumptions upon which statements, problems and whole paradigms rest.

While I disagree with many of Quinn’s conclusions (especially those which are based on his brand of dialectical materialism, the shtick that allowed Marvin J. Harris to “explain” why cultures do the seemingly bizarre things they do), this exercise in getting a wider perspective is so invaluable in finding a way forward that I’m amazed that we don’t do it more often.

Instead, as we can see in this and many another thread, we get stuck in our ism-jism and get on each other’s nerves without much in the way of productive results.

That said, here’s what we have with this thread: a lot of well-intentioned but rather pointless bickering (although this is not what Brenda is calling it, but then again she's got another purpose here altogether.) So, having exhausted that route, or at least having been exhausted by it, I’m going to come at this from another angle.

I was talking to a Chinese friend of mine the other day about the growth of English into the world-language that it’s becoming. His response was that this has occurred as the direct result of the colonization of the planet, a situation which has not so much ended as morphed into the Pursuit of Markets.

So, I put the following question to him: What’s going to happen if China follows the US in its “development” from a third to a first world country? (Two cars in every garage, TVs in every bathroom, etc.)

“That’s easy,” he said, “the earth will die within one generation.” He went on to talk about the environmental catastrophe that is blossoming right now in the aftermath of the Yang-ste river dam project and the unregulated expansion of Chinese industry, as well as a dozen other serious threats.

This excerpt from an outfit calling itself the CHINA COUNCIL FOR INTERNATIONAL COOPERATION ON ENVIRONMENT AND DEVELOPMENT talks about the importance of biodiversity not only in the China’s future but in its past:

China's biodiversity is the third richest in the world, and richer than any other Asian or temperate country. This wealth of species and populations is explained by very large size, extreme in the world. Major ecosystems include 1) forests, that range from temperate to tropical (10%), 2) climatic and geographic variation, long continental stability and the most extensive subtropical zone, extensive high altitude grasslands and alpine systems (60%), 3) extensive steppe grasslands and deserts (15%), 4) important rivers, lakes and wetland systems, 5) rich marine and coastal areas and 6) agricultural land (11% of total area).

However, China has the world's largest human population, including both some of the world's most densely populated and intensively cultivated areas and also some of the most desolate and unpolluted regions of the planet. The dependence of the human population on direct and indirect benefits and services derived from biodiversity is enormous. The reason China has been able to sustain this high population is directly related to its reliance on its biological resources over 1500 years of ecosystem management...


One reason I post this excerpt is to illustrate one of our all-too-common misperceptions, that China is a backward country that has been mismanaged from time immemorial, through Mao’s cultural revolution and continuing to the present day. We speak of forcing China to “open up her markets” and “following the West into the clear light of democratization, etc,” when, in fact, it’s precisely this following the West which has precipitated the disaster we see unfolding right now. This does not excuse Mao’s behavior, or that of China’s many emperors, but the fact is that it’s only when China attempts to emulate our way of life that her billion souls will push us all over the edge.

Toward the end of the last thread I wrote a longish piece in the inability of one culture to perceive another through its eyes. Most of us know of the native people’s inability to “see” Magellan’s ships because they were so large that they were outside the known frame of reference, but how many of us were aware of the European’s inability to recognize that the Americas were not some pristine wilderness in 1491 but instead a carefully and long-cultivated series of human-enhanced ecosystems which by and large sustainably supported 100 million inhabitants for many thousands of years?

There were exceptions, of course, there were even some brutal empires that would have made los conquistadores envious, but mostly what was practiced was a sort of bioregionalism that worked. Tribal society was predominantly egalitarian and highly stable. What’s more, they didn’t have to work as hard as we do, pound for pound, day by day. It was an easy affluence that we cannot afford to recognize because of the implications about the deal we got sucked into.

To us, they were all (and still are to a great many moderns) scattered bands of primitives, savages…Stone Age barbarians who weren’t really, when you got right down to it, human. Read Darwin’s diary. (Or just look at that post of mine at the end of the last thread for the short version.)

Now, I’m not presenting this alternative view of 1491 in order to change anyone’s notion of “history” (Charles Mann’s book does a far better job anyway), but to get us to look past these silly divisions we’ve erected between us. We typically define our views along the traditional Left/Right axis, or, more recently, additionally along the Libertarian/Authoritarian axis (this “new” 2 dimensional graph can be viewed at the Political Compass, which has generated some lively discussion in the past), even these two axes don’t tell the whole story—we live in (at least) three dimensions.

What’s left out is, of course, the most important part of the equation: the power dynamic. That is, the usual hierarchical, top-down arrangement we find everywhere from our governments (doesn’t matter whether it’s Bush’s imperial presidency or Stalin’s commissariat) to our economic and social structures (the pyramidal corporation and the local mayor/town sheriff/bailiff/courthouse janitor scale) or the extremely rare, nearly extinct egalitarian set up that was once common in every tribal society.

Why would the most important feature of our various organizations never be discussed? Get suspicious, Brenda—it’s the mother of all conspiracies! Well, actually, it is mentioned, above the doors of those courthouses and in our great documents which declare our liberty and the Rule of Law…heck, it’s even on our money, if you read Masonic Latin. E Pluribus Unum, baby…freedom and justice for all...all men were created equal…the land of unlimited opportunity, etc, etc, until the most stalwart defender of Empire has to blush or reach for the communal bucket.

That, you see, is the BIGGEST Big Lie, the conspiracy that no one can see because it’s right in their faces. It’s also a complete crock of shit, as everyone knows when they recite the well-known formula Power = Money.

Here’s the deal. Can we really continue down this road, as the gap between rich & poor widens and the earth’s ecosystems crash in time with the rousing chorus of bear & bull markets, or is there another way?

Well of course there’s another way but we’re going to have to step out of our cultural harness to see it. First off, forget all that magical, pseudo-mystical horseshit about the Illuminati and satanic Powers That Be. (They be the ordinary, everyday CEOs of GE and Nike and every other bloodsucking motherfucking death pyramid on the planet, along with their loyal minions, unscrupled lackeys and unwitting stooges.) And stop giggling about the impossibility of free energy devices, ‘cuz we don’t need ‘em anyway. Whether or not it’s possible is a completely different story which mainstream science is in no position to speculate about, but my point here is that’s it’s unnecessary and even potentially dangerous for a number of reasons I won’t go into right now.

We need to stop the madness very, very soon and start being honest about the difference between what we say and what we do. Everyone felt so smart and applauded Mr. Harris when he explained cargo cults—how good are we going to feel about our superiority when we take the bull by the tail and look the problem in the eye, without our high falutin’ self-serving rhetoric to obscure our base and frankly quite deranged behavior?

We could start today by asking why we spend a trillion dollars on another war for oil when we could run everything that needed to run on the power of the sun. (Doubt it, skeptics? Just keep on supportin’ them troops, unless you’d consider something as objective as proof…)

Or, we could ask ourselves why it is that we’re debating whether Ron Paul’s candidacy and even more unlikely presidency might be better than Rudy’s or Barack’s or any of the other cardboard cut-outs whose power derives from the corporate donors whose brand they receive with such unctuous sanctimony, when any honest historian knows that America has always been a plutocracy and that the reason that half the world is dying in miserable shitholes with no clean water is not because they’re “backward” and “undeveloped” but because we profit from their misery.

To his credit, Ron Paul did have the audacity to mention blowback--are any of the Democrats talking that talk?

Doubt that outrageous claim? Read this and tell me your argument—I’d be thrilled to be enlightened. (It has nothing to do with American history for those who tire of it...)

Syn, I’m reading through your stuff; surrender, I read your Alternet reform-the-corporations thing, which I liked, but it ain’t gonna happen, for exactly the same reason that renewables can’t be used in any scale as long as the plutocrats own the government: it's not in their interest to relinquish their power, even tiny greenwashing bits of it. Ericswan, I don't see what all the fuss was about in Makow reprinting my conversation with Shrub, unless there was more to it--I've written lots on how little I care for Rense & Icke...

For those who think that the Age of the Robber Barons ended when the Sherman anti-trust legislation was passed, well, I’ll close with Thomas Pynchon’s eighth grade character’s essay on What It Means To Be An American in Against the Day:

It means do what they tell you and take what they give you and don’t go on strike or their soldiers will shoot you down.

(If you think this was only relevant to folks living a hundred years ago, when the Owners were able to order the Pinkertons to do such things--and be congratulated for it in the editorial pages--read what Mark Twain wrote about life back then and tell me what’s changed, underneath all the hype.)


Finally, to answer Richard’s question (sorry for going on so long and for still not responding to others):

If, as stated here and by such luminaries as Robert Anton Wilson And Phillip Dick, the Holy Roman Empire never died & the American Empire is just the latest disguise worn by this ancient evil, then what, exactly, did the "Founding Fathers" found?

Dunno, a new outpost? That the sun might never set…until it rises in the West? Mr. Dick's analysis sounds about right to me.

9/05/2007 06:38:00 PM  
Blogger just_another_dick said...

IC, my question wasn't meant to be answered. It was more sarcasm.

Shrub & Bombay's little argument gave me flashbacks to my 1st college American History class. I asked my professor "How could anyone sane think that you could build a society whose stated basis was "freedom, truth & justice," on a foundation of land theft, genocide, slavery & an ocean of bloodshed?"

He said, "Oh, that's Manifest Destiny. We covered that yesterday."

Manifest Destiny?

Needless to say, I didn't ask many questions after that. I just regurgitated what I thought he wanted to hear on tests, took my A and moved on.

"(If you think this was only relevant to folks living a hundred years ago, when the Owners were able to order the Pinkertons to do such things--and be congratulated for it in the editorial pages--read what Mark Twain wrote about life back then and tell me what’s changed, underneath all the hype.)"


I grew up down river from Homestead IC. Site of the Homestead Strike of 1892. If you remember, the Pinkertons, even though they killed 2 folks, got their asses kicked & ran off with their tales between their legs.

What broke the strike was the intervention of the state militia & the willingness of scabs to cross the picket lines.

Just like those troops in Iraq would shoot me if ordered to & my neighbor would step on my balls if it would benefit him.

So, in what way is any of this different from my "people are shit" drum that I always keep beating?

If folk stuck together they could do all manner of neat shit.

But it will never happen.

If I had time, I'd accompany my drumbeat with some more stories of Zambian Democracy. The US may have its faults, but comparatively speaking, this place has the potential for change, even if its citizens are too self-centered, indolent & lazy to ever make that change happen.

9/05/2007 07:42:00 PM  
Blogger Shrubageddon said...

Yeah, Surrender, if only Sounder followed his own advice instead of shamelessly promoting his unattended blog. Sorry, Sounder, but I have accepted you as my eternal nemesis, because that's how you want it and that's how you'll get it. I won't ignore your feces throwing...instead I'll throw it right back at you and smear it on your smoking jacket....of course, I will be wearing rubber gloves and a gas mask.

9/05/2007 08:41:00 PM  
Blogger wwwdotnet said...

Sorry for the lateness....and sorry IC to follow with this after your very interesting post...




Shrubageddon -

Thanks for not judging me for a while yet. Give me the countdown to judgment day though won't you? pshh. What are you on about when you say fraud? In what sense? We are all virtual frauds of people, how could an internet existence become anymore fraudulent than it already is? I guess it can, and the answer is an ugly one. Will check your link soon, I have about an hour free a day for the net, what kind of a life is that... x




Surrender -

Apology accepted mate. I get where you were coming from. And about the veil...it went a long time ago. And yes, I always follow IC's links with great interest...cheers




Fructedor -

Thanks for those heads up, gonna have mass net sesh in the near future. Checking Hans Jenny now, fascinating...thank you...



Sounder-

"Some study the forms with an ear to listen for substance. Some fix the form with their opinion." ...well said.




Ericswan -

oi oi saveloy! Xerxes? Last I heard, he was an androgynous, kind man, taking a hunchback character under his wing with the prospect of juicy vaginal action. I saw "300" the other day and nearly puked my soul out. Why do you mention Xerxes? Think I missed the point...completely!




Bombay -

Sorry for the late response my friend...Your bangers have been medium tazered. the same way we tazer our children. And yes, i never told you what a Bombay roll was here in England. Cover your eyes children...It is when a woman wraps her milk bags round the pulsating purple phallace of the lucky gentlemen, and proceeds to jiggle her assets, as if to really make sure all the milk is shook, real frothy like, till she acquires her much desired pearly white necklace.

9/05/2007 08:46:00 PM  
Blogger Sounder said...

Shrub, there is no way you could be my eternal nemesis. You are simply not evil (enough). (Also I don't much go for the good vs. evil thing anyway) Really shrub, I'm simply trying to have some fun. For me fun is finding new ways to talk about form and substance. You help me with this, so thanks. And too bad you do not relate to the strange word combinations produced. I do not relate well to gratuitously vitriolic treatment of near perfect strangers, but I will deal with it as best I can.

9/05/2007 10:13:00 PM  
Blogger ericswan said...

Net. nope you didn't miss a thing.

IC...Richard must be stopped I'm finding myself agreeing with him more and more.

I'm wondering out loud if "someone" would like to lay claim to playing a second i.d.??

You know what I mean? Come clean. We are all forgiving here. Hehehe

9/05/2007 10:28:00 PM  
Blogger Dr. Bombay said...

"He pissed in their fireplace,
He dragged them trough
Turbulent Indigo.."

9/05/2007 10:30:00 PM  
Blogger iridescent cuttlefish said...

The US may have its faults, but comparatively speaking, this place has the potential for change, even if its citizens are too self-centered, indolent & lazy to ever make that change happen.

Just curious, Richard, about the apparent contradiction in that last remark--what is this potential for change, if we're too "too self-centered, indolent & lazy to ever make that change happen"? I realize that the Empire-never-died question was rhetorical, but this one does invite some speculation.

Taking a wild guess, I'd say it meant that folks want to believe in the principles we supposedly live by...as long as they don't actually have to either get up off their asses or sacrifice anything to do so. Did you know that the most common response that the GIs in Iraq gave when asked why they enlisted was "to make a difference in the world, to help"? Now, that's assuming that they didn't want to fess up to needing the money, since there's shit for opportunity in Little Desperation, Arkansas, but that's what they said, anyway.

I've got bazillions of nieces & nephews and even a few youngins of my own about that age, none of whom are exactly going into banking. While only the most adventuresome have been checking out the Peace Corps and reforestation initiatives like the one our friend surrender works with, they are all studying things like nursing, forestry, etc, and they listen to my tales of greening the world one hobbit hole at a time with great interest.

I can't believe that this is some sort of genetic trait peculiar to my family (although there is that one story about the German socialist pacifists deciding that assassinating Jefferson Davis was more important than their consciences...not to mention all those generations of teacher-types...) No, I think we'd be very surprised at how many young folks would jump at the chance to commit to an effort that did not entail bringing freedom & justice with an M-16.

This all gets back to the question of why such an option isn't on the table. I mean, the Leader and his compassionate conservatives are all for faith-based initiatives and letting charity take the place of the social net they're busy redirecting to those needy corporations, but when it comes to projects that would actually make poor folks permanently self-sufficient, able to sell excess power back to the utility companies, etc? Funny how there's no interest in that kind of initiative, eh?

So here's another modest proposal. You know how many countries require a year of either military or civilian service? Germany's been doing it for a long time--one friend's stories about being in a nuclear silo with American soldiers on acid contrasts nicely with my own experiences tagging along with another friend whose Zivildienst was spent in a nursing home that was actually pleasant to be in. (I'm not sure which story sounds more far-fetched; I know the latter is true, as I was there...) What I'm thinking is this: we institute a mandatory one year civil service, including but not limited to building these ultra-green bunkers I'm always on about, not like those wonderful housing projects in the '60s but along the lines of Roger Dean's Willowater community idea.

Can you imagine the ripple effect? Kids get to see that they can do something for their country aside from exploding the enemy's brains all over his living room wall, folks all through the spectrum begin to understand that the earth can (and should) be healed (and our psyche along with it) and that we don't really need market forces and taxes to pay for it (yes, there are ways) or even the oil companies' permission...

'Course we would need the oil companies' permission, since they do own the government, individually through the "representatives" that they "sponsor" and collectively through that silk-suit mafia that runs out of the Fed (Reserve, not Penn, although if there was any justice...) Still, wouldn't that just change the dynamic of 'Merican Life?

I know, pipe-dreams. Have another hit?

9/06/2007 12:33:00 AM  
Blogger just_another_dick said...

"Just curious, Richard, about the apparent contradiction in that last remark--what is this potential for change, if we're too "too self-centered, indolent & lazy to ever make that change happen"?"

I don't see it as a contradiction IC.

There's potential across 2 battery terminals, but if you never hook anything up to complete the circuit, no work gets done.

"This all gets back to the question of why such an option isn't on the table."

Well IC, I'd ask you why the option was never put on the table after the glorious 60s when young folk apparently had concrete proof that they could make a difference?

Instead we got Disco & yuppies & rampant drug addiction & more of the same old shit.

I tell you IC, lately my friend Chris has been talking about his home. Chris is not a typical MR bouncer. He speaks 12 languages & has a Master's Degree in journalism from Carnegie Mellon University. None of which he can use because his country sent him to school &, being the bright guy that he is, he opted to bring his family here instead because he could see where Zambian democracy was heading.

When Zambia declared its independence all of the white folk were given the boot. They took the large farms, divided them up into small parcels and doled them out to black folk.

Now, as Chris describes it, while the white folk ran the farms very efficiently & produced enough food to feed the country, under the new system food is becoming scarcer and scarcer.
The present farm owners are loathe to practice anything as sane as crop rotation, preferring to adopt the attitude that if money was made on corn this year, one can just keep planting corn every year until, of course, all the nutrients are depleted from the soil.

Industry is run much the same way. People, who had no knowledge of business, were appointed by the president to run businesses. Consequently there was rampant nepotism as family members created good salaried jobs for equally inexperienced family members. &, in most cases, the family members wouldn't even bother showing up for their new jobs, preferring to just collect their salaries.

Instead of taking the huge influx of World bank dollars and creating sustainable jobs for Zambian citizens, the president just absconded with a huge chunk of it.

If you criticized the president publicly for his poor policies, you were given a few chances to shut up then you'd just disappear.

The thing that bugs Chris the most is his complete lack of understanding at how his fellow countrymen could do that to each other. Now, with independence & democracy, they had the chance to build their country into something good for all Zambians, but instead they just pissed it all away.

Any thoughts on how that could happen IC?


Y'know, I used to believe in unions. I used to believe in all the socialist rhetoric & share the wealth bullshit, but then I grew up. Or, more precisely, I joined a union & got to see it for the fake it is. I got to spend years watching my union brethren consistently shoot themselves in the foot.

Supposedly, there are 2 sides to every story.

You tell yours and I'll tell mine.

Like I said before IC, you run in different circles than I do.
It isn't a criticism or a put down but it may be sprinkled with a little envy.

I suppose it's all blowback from my youthful ignorance about altruism & how choosing that path only leads one to a middle age where one just spins ones' wheels deep in the outskirts of nowhere.

So, contrary to what you may believe, I'm really not trying to convert anyone to my point of view. But I do sometimes wish someone would convert me to theirs because mine does suck.

Alas, it is the truth as I see it.

You have the choice to take it or leave it, but, at this period in time, I'm stuck with it.

Sorry.

9/06/2007 02:55:00 AM  
Blogger Sounder said...

"So, contrary to what you may believe, I'm really not trying to convert anyone to my point of view. But I do sometimes wish someone would convert me to theirs because mine does suck."

Richard, that was precious. It is good to wake up in the morning and have a good laugh.

Then IC...

'Course we would need the oil companies' permission, since they do own the government,...'

That and the fact that most peoples psyches are not developed enough to see benefits in helping others before they help themselves. Have the govt. require service, then the govt. is defining 'being' and thereby creating more repression in the psyche. We need to think about the stuff in our heads before anything will become sustainable.

9/06/2007 06:57:00 AM  
Blogger Shrubageddon said...

Richard,

What ever happened to Lawrence? I hope he wasn't disappeared.

I bet quite a few people here wish I was disappeared....and in that respect, we're not that much different from Zambia......in Zambia they just act on that impulse, rather than just think it.

And also, don't you find it ironic that we're are consistently told by numerous people on this blog that there are spooks all about, yet when I withhold my judgement of someone until I can get a feel for them, I am told I'm vitriolic to Strangers? You can't win for losing, can you? Maybe that's the point. Life is perpetually being stuck between a rock and a hard place.

9/06/2007 08:34:00 AM  
Blogger Shrubageddon said...

Shrub, there is no way you could be my eternal nemesis.

But I never said that, Sounder, just as I've never said many things you have attributed to me, or implied about me. You appear to have made it your life's mission to analyze me on this blog. No other poster here receives the disdainful scrutiny you apply to me. I'm not sure if that's a compliment, or an insult, but either way, you have positioned yourself as a pesky nemesis....and nemesis is metaphor, in this case. Please learn to be more nuanced and less literal. This is part of your problem with your perception of me. Try practicing some of what you preach in your approach to me...you have a huge blind spot and a lot of it has to do with your conditioned prejudices.

Because I'm Satirical, doesn't mean I'm not serious. It requires you to think and determine the layered meaning and go beyond the literal. I do believe there are some here who do get me...because they have gone through the rigor of removing the log from their eye.

Believe it, or not, Surrender still does not get me...only part of me. Richard is one of the few who does get me...and I get him...maybe becuase we were born of the same Pennsylvania Mineral Content.

9/06/2007 08:46:00 AM  
Blogger ericswan said...

IC..Just exactly what choice does a grunt have when asked why he signed on the dotted line? And what choice did the journalist have when he edited the story on what the "grunt" said? Do you really think that rape, murder, plunder and pillage is beyond the 21st century man?

9/06/2007 09:18:00 AM  
Blogger Shrubageddon said...

Take that, I.C. and Shrub, you veggiewimps.

Homo sapiens is an omnivore.


We gave up on the vegetarian thing. We have cut back our meat intake considerably, and now only eat organic, grass fed and humanely raised meat, chicken and pork. Was man meant ot to eat meat pumped full of steroids and antibiotics fed on a diet of grain pumped for of herbicides and pesticides? If so, I musn't be a man. Call me a non-toxic weenie wimp.

Believe it, or not, I didn't miss meat that much. My wife is a wonderful cook (so am I), so we found ways to prepare fantastically flavorful food that satisfied our nutritional requirements. I suggest Quinoa. It's quite versatile and highly nutritious....and it's got a great history.

I now awit Sounder's disdainful scrutiny on this latest post. How dare I pander to the history of South American Natives and the wondrous crop, Quinoa. Where is my substance and my form. They were bloody fucking savages, and in the Big Bad World of Survival Of The Fittest, they were too weak and got their asses kicked. The Conquistadors kicked their weenie, wimpy asses. Elect Ron Paul.

9/06/2007 09:37:00 AM  
Blogger wwwdotnet said...

Hey Shrub,
You ever had Marmite? it's made from yeast extract, and a great source of vitamin B12. It looks like shit, and smells awfull to the untrained nose...but if you end up liking the stuff, you'll be hooked. Lightly spread on buttered toast.

9/06/2007 09:48:00 AM  
Blogger surrender said...

Hey Shrub:

If I only get part of you, which I get is true, it's just because, even at my age, I am still naive.

But if I had to chose who to spend an Altenate Reality with, you would be on my list; along with Geroge Carlin.

And I'd share that other part of you that I don't get with EVE.


IC: thanks for reading the link and I respect and envy the way you use words.

DOT: Thanks

9/06/2007 10:36:00 AM  
Blogger Shrubageddon said...

You ever had Marmite?

Hey Dot, no, I have never had Marmite....I have heard of it, though. I have never seen it on this side of the pond. I'm sure I could find it somehwere, but I'd have to search high and low. I'm a freak about smells, though, so it would be tough for me to swallow if it smelled like feces. Of course, Kale, Collards, Mustards and Turnip Greens smell like shit, and I eat them and enjoy them, so I guess it's possible I could get past the smell.

I do love Nutella. We don't keep it in the pantry much...because I can't stop eating it when we do have it in there. I hear it's Europe's equivalent to Peanut Butter...in its ubiquitous use...is that true?

9/06/2007 11:11:00 AM  
Blogger Shrubageddon said...

But if I had to chose who to spend an Altenate Reality with, you would be on my list; along with Geroge Carlin.

And I'd share that other part of you that I don't get with EVE.


Aw shucks....thanks, Surrender.

*****Shrub is blushing*****

9/06/2007 11:13:00 AM  
Blogger iridescent cuttlefish said...

The thing that bugs Chris the most is his complete lack of understanding at how his fellow countrymen could do that to each other. Now, with independence & democracy, they had the chance to build their country into something good for all Zambians, but instead they just pissed it all away.

Any thoughts on how that could happen IC?


Well, it’s kind of obvious, wouldn’t you say? It’s the same thing that happened to the unions, the same power dynamic that I was talking about upfield—power corrupts. The Zambian road to rotten democracy is one that many African nations have taken because the top-down policy structure denies the possibility of government of, by and for “the people”.

The story of Wangari Maathai’s Green Belt movement is both an exception to the rule and an illustration of the phenomenon you and Chris are talking about. Kenya had the potential to be a truly egalitarian democracy, with its vast natural resources, etc. So what happened when the colonial masters turned over the reins? Instead of creating an African Kenya, they just filled the vacancies of the allegedly departed previous Owners.

The part of Maathai’s story I love most is the confrontation. See, she saw the cronyism and nepotism and neo-colonial direction the country’s leadership was taking and decided to go outside the political game altogether, building a grassroots network from the bottom up. All those mothers whose sons went off to the ranks of military and business had nothing left to lose, so they followed Maathai’s quixotic tree planting quest.

Things came to a head when the gub’mint saw how much popular support the GBM was gaining (especially worrisome was the fact that the crazy plan to provide social justice through environmental stability was working…) About 10,000,000 trees into it, the boys in Nairobi sent out the Army to stop the women from fixing things, guns got drawn, arrests & detentions began to occur…and then Wangari did the unexpected. Instead of fighting or laying in the dirt Thoreau-style, she bared her breasts, the traditional African gesture that reminds everyone who the mother is.

Unprepared, abashed, suddenly remembering that these women were their mothers, the soldier boys put down their guns, unshackled their mothers and even began to help with the planting…at least until the commander screamed at them to get back in the trucks.

There are many morals to the story (and sorry for repeating it yet again), but chief among them for our purposes here is the power dynamic—egalitarian, from the bottom-up—and the notion of “remembering who we are”.

Now, I realize that this contradicts with my civil service scheme, as Sounder rightly contends, but that doesn’t mean that the idea couldn’t work if it were done right. I also realize that there are a thousand ways to corrupt a good idea, and that anything that’s mandatory is going to breed resentment.

As friend Blum (Bill, not Norbert) reminds us, no socialist experiment was ever left to stand or fall on its own merits, but was instead subjected to any and all forms of sabotage, embargo and military threats that the boys down in the massively, sometimes secretively funded anti-communist “pro-democracy” ministries could think up. But what I’m advocating isn’t statist anyway. Brother Einstein was wrong about the central planning part of his ideal socialist state; it has to be decentralized or the power dynamic gets pyramid shaped before you can say, “Elite!”

On the other hand, if small, locally-rooted initiatives could direct where & how the self-suffcient communities would be built—and I mean no central bureaucracy, no CCC Part II—what would the harm be in making Young Republicans build houses for poor folks? (Can you imagine Dick Cheney in workman’s overalls?)

Provided that the program was locally administered and that the templates were good, the possible benefits could be enormous. All those kids looking for something to do (and they all are, btw) would find a safe outlet, the bankers’ sons would experience their first callous (on their hands, before the ones around their hearts have the chance to grow), and, most importantly, everyone would realize that this Zero-Sum Oil game is a racket.

(You see, Brenda, we don’t need oil or “free energy devices” if energy production were decentralized through the use of houses which produce more energy than they consume. You’d generate enough electricity to heat & cool your home, recharge your car, and still have enough left over to sell back to the Grid. Not to mention that these houses produce no greenhouse gases, 45% of which do now come from our stupid architecture.)

I know that this whole idea sounds preposterous, given the degree of control that business has over every aspect of our lives, but if you put Eugene Tsui, Malcolm Wells, Peter Vetsch, Roger Dean and Paul Hawken together in a locked room until they worked out the details, you’d have an airtight plan. Well, they’d probably need our own Mark for the bioregional framework and maybe a Swedish disciple of Schauberger for the water revival end of things…but it’s doable, even with such a short list of guiding lights.

I bet these guys would even jump at the chance. Just like most of the kids would.

(Ericswan, I was in no way "defending our troops" when I talked about that poll response--is that what bugged you about that conversation that Makow quoted? Do you really think that I'm a defender of empire or militarism?! I have been misunderstood before, but that would be a first...)

9/06/2007 11:36:00 AM  
Blogger wwwdotnet said...

Shrub,
http://www.accomodata.co.uk/marmite1.htm
Most people who eat marmite have been made to eat it when they were a kid, and so they like it as adults. But as a new taste, it can be quite a shock. But I introduced it to a few foreign friends, and one of them now swears by it.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=GoRcU0Ul7tU
Nutella? Yes, we love the stuff here, generally all over europe, you're right. I never thought that you wouldn't be spreading copious amounts of chocolate spread on your toast in the USA. Nocilla, the spanish version, is much better though...

IC -
"Instead of fighting or laying in the dirt Thoreau-style, she bared her breasts, the traditional African gesture that reminds everyone who the mother is."

What an inspiring story....

9/06/2007 12:05:00 PM  
Blogger surrender said...

IC:

In addition to planting trees Wangari Maathai was voted into Parliament with a large majority. She was then appointed by Kenya's new president, Mwai Kibaki, as assistant minister for environment, natural resources and wildlife. For the inauguration, Maathai's police escort included officers who had earlier arrested her. Maathai expresses frustration with the slow bureaucratic pace. "People want action," she says. "They don't want to hear that I'm sitting there when the forests are disappearing." But, she adds, "We have opportunities to make change happen."

9/06/2007 01:42:00 PM  
Blogger Shrubageddon said...

It will be interesting to see if the move neutralizes her, as I'm sure it was intended. I kind of see her accepting this as a sell-out, of sorts. How is this different than what happened in Zambia...using Colonial Bureaucracy and antiquated political systems to foster change...something she was much more successful at by circumventing the corrupt and stifling colonial established system by going straight to the people with a grassroots, egalitarian program.

That's regression from where she started, not progress.

9/06/2007 02:18:00 PM  
Blogger messianicdruid said...

IC said, “I think we'd be very surprised at how many young folks would jump at the chance to commit to an effort that did not entail bringing freedom & justice with an M-16.”

When I was at the Straw Poll in Ames I noticed that, easily, two thirds of the RP supporters were under thirty. These kids actually believe that they might be able to make a change for the better in America by electing a person who defends the Constitution “from all enemies, foreign and domestic”.

I fully understand that it will take more than electing one particular person to be president. I also realize that he could easily be “fitzgeralded” {wellstoned}. In fact, I’m surprised it hasn’t happened already, considering the inroads he is making on the Republican Party. He raised more money in one day, during the Texas straw poll, than all the other GOP candidates combined. This is why they are moving up the primary dates all over the country; to try to help their candidates get some traction before New Hampshire where they know he is going to do well.

All this said, depending on The Leaven of Herod to get America back on track is misdirected. But I suspect it may be a needful step, to get us to where we want to be.

The Leaven of Herod has certainly been active in the last decades of American politics. Supporting Ron Paul is evidence of this and it must be burned out just as all leaven must be burned to make the loaf edible.

Leaven of the Pharisees = acting like you believe a thing will make others believe you believe it.

Leaven of the Sadducees = strict materialism

Leaven of Essenes = maximum separation from society - monasticism

Leaven of Herod = political activism replacing personal holiness

Most of us must discover what does not work, before we can appreciate what does. "Righteousness exalts a nation, but sin {law - less - ness 1John 3:4} is a reproach to any people."

The benefit of Ron Paul at this time is in showing everyone that America's leaders and most of it's citizens don't even believe in it's own foundational concepts. Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness in a Republic = a nation of Law. Democracy is where up to 51% of the people eat the other 49% of the people.

The uptopianism espoused around here has no possibility of happening without a return of personal integrity. It spreads out from there.

9/06/2007 02:29:00 PM  
Blogger Shrubageddon said...

So, messianicdruid, you on board then in abolishing the Corporation as a legal entity? Are you on board with reducing our greenhosue gas emissions by 90% in 10 years, or less? How does Ron Paul feel about those two issues?

It's not Libery when your Liberty comes at the expense of someone elses, which is more often, than not, the case. Liberty, or notions thereof, often conflict. Is exploiting another's addiction to enrich yourself considered Liberty? Sure, in a Libertarian Utopia you're free to exploit the weak of will, but is it really Liberty when you consider you're are actually enabling the deprivation of an addict, thus depriving them of Liberty, whilst you are harming yourself in a Karmic way...so Liberty at what cost for you? These are all difficult questions....but I don't see how Libertarianism deals effectively with run amok exploitation and tyranny. It appears that those who would seek to game the system could do so just as easily under Libertarianism as they could under our current system. And please, this is not a Democracy. It may not be a Republic, either, but it is certainly not a Democracy.

9/06/2007 02:46:00 PM  
Blogger et in Arcadia ego Eve said...

Jeff have you seen this one:

http://www.northcarolinaconservative.com/index.php?subaction=showfull&id=1188428152&archive=&start_from=&ucat=&

It pretty much sums up why I consistently vote publican. I HEART TOM FEENEY AND "GAY" CALL BOYZ!!!!

9/06/2007 04:34:00 PM  
Blogger Tsoldrin said...

I'm not in gitmo and the registration didn't scare me off (I actually prefer it that way)... I moved and am working towards a grid free existance.

A few comments I felt compelled to make...

I'm a little disappointed to see this racist slight against Ron Paul repeated here. Surely you know these things have been soundly debunked. Surely anyone who has read any of Paul's writings could spot how far from his own words and his message of personal liberty for everyone these allegations are. It seems almost criminal to me to knowingly perpetuate these falsehoods. All one has to do is look to the source of this stuff to know it for propaganda... left wing hate site and CIA mouth piece daily kos, where anyone who doesn't think and act exactly as they prescribe is labeled a criminal. On that note, when did it become a crime to associate with Birchers or Patriots? Perhaps my personal animosity towards dailykos may be in part due to being banned from there by none other than outed CIA asset himself MarKos, for the crime of posting the press release when Paul officially declared his candidacy.

As far as Paul goes, I'd rather discuss the issues and ideas than the debunked allegations... and on that note, I'm for him for his message of personal freedom, liberty and defense of the constitution. I think we're living in a pivotal time and we're very close to seeing the assaults of freedom by the Bush administration become permenant. There is a very narrow window here to overturn much of what has been done and it's closing fast. One might wonder why the Left has not mentioned any of this at all, as it would certainly get them a pile of votes. I suspect it's for the same reason that they have taken impeachment off the table... namely, they have no intention whatsoever of stripping any of the illegal powers Bush has siezed because they are expecting a win and to inherit those very same powers. THAT is something which should terrify everyone and that is why this upcoming election is extremely important IMHO. Sure, Bush has laid waste to freedom, but for the most part he's been a pussy about it and just laid the ground work for someone else in the next election or perhaps the one after that, to sieze unlimited power. I fear that unless this precedent is overturned and now, that there's unimaginable havok to be reaped in the future by some unknown power grabber. Ron Paul, I am certain, would restore the power of the executive to it's rightful and limited place and for that reason alone I would support him. It's not so much that he can save us all (that's really up to us) and it's not so much that he'd be a small step in the right direction to fixing things (I think he is), it's that he may be able to halt or at least slow down the headlong slide towards totalitarianism we're going towards.

As far as his other policies, I doubt most of them could be enacted anyway (by him at least) because the power to do that kind of stuff is not vested in the presidency by the constitution. I doubt they would be bad changes if he were actually able to implement them though. I'm not an economics expert but I can see some sense there and some of the criticisms of his economic policy don't hold much water when you look at the whole picture... for instance, some folks (even altruists apparently) seem to think it's okay to steal money from earners by force of arms in the form of taxes and then spread it out to those more needy. Even if you're in that camp, you should be alarmed at the way the government goes about it. You end up with huge departments of endless middleman beauracracies basically stealing an ocean of 'help' and taking their own glass fulls all along the way, often handing glasses of it off to friends and anyone wealthy enough to bribe them for it and what ends up going to the needy? If they're lucky perhaps a thimble full of 'help'. That's attrocious. Would it not be far better if everyone had 30% more in their paycheck, thereby increasing disposable income, which leads to more buying which leads to more jobs? Thus, not only do you have a hell of a lot less people needing help, you've got a lot more people with more to give VOLUNTARILLY. It seems like a better system to me anyway... and it's absolutely certain that what we've got now aint working so trying just about anything would be an improvement.

In the end I think we need to be in a post scarcity utopia probably not much different than the one IC advocates, but I don't see us as a society ready for that yet... oh we're technologically ready to take care of everyone in the world... have been for generations... we're not socially ready though, as far as I can see, and that should be self-evident by the fact that we're not doing it. On that note also I should mention that those thinking of attempting to create these little sustainable microverses would be much better served by a Ron Paul administration, as he's for personal rights including property. Those who havn't been watching closely might be alarmed by that fact that eminent domain is now being used to sieze property for no other reason than to increase tax revenues under new ownership - and how much tax revenues are these little enclaves generating? Just about zero? I can hear the bulldozers revving up. Something to think about.

---

And can we please stop perpetuating the myths regarding indians? They may have had some good societies, but you'd have that by sheer numbers of different societes anyway. Likely the fact that they were so low impact on the environment was due to the fact that they were so technologically backwards and therefore lacked the ability to screw up the environment on any sort of scale. Stuck in a rut between stone and bronze ages, these are one of the only peoples on the entire planet that never invented the damn wheel! This alone doomed them and if they hadn't been conquered when and by whom they were, someone else would have come along to do the very same thing eventually. I like native americans as well as the next person, but there's a very untrue picture being painted of them and it often leaves out the genocide some tribes imparted on competing tribes and the exquisitely advanced techniques of torture practiced by some. Keep it real folks.

9/06/2007 06:00:00 PM  
Blogger Shrubageddon said...

Holy Shit!! Why bother...it's useless. I believe the majority of people who post here had their minds made up before they came to this blog and the only thing we all have in common is that things are fucked up as they are. Why and How we're fucked up is where many of us differ and we certainly differ on what to do about it and what we want our world to be.

9/06/2007 07:27:00 PM  
Blogger Shrubageddon said...

You know, Tsoldrin, I deal with Totalitarianism every day I go to work in Corporate America. I have had many jobs with many companies in the corporate world, and the culture and structure of each is essentially the same. The movie The Corporation got it right. Do I really have a choice? Yeah, I guess I do....I could become a beggar and abandon my wife and children, or I could attempt to live off the grid, but that would mean I would be homeless and my family would become unhealthy and malnourished until I could figure a way...if I could figure a way. What does Ron Paul and all those who proclaim liberty and personal freedom presume to do about the problem of Corporate America...because I don't believe the root of the problem is Government...Government, or misused Government is the symptom. Corporate Power and Influence is the root and until that's addressed, nothing will change.

9/06/2007 07:36:00 PM  
Blogger Belliosto said...

Thanks iridescent cuttlefish for your 9/5/2007 6:38 PM post.

just another dick I did not mean to be sarcastic about why the US may have been founded. I made sure I shared what I have learned. Stoopid or nut I shared. Thank you.

To love genocide or not. That is the question. The Americans that were killed off by the Europeans were replaced by Africans. The African savage was much more domesticated. This the history of the US. And now the people of the US are in the Middle East. Vietnam, Somalia, Iraq. 3X losers. Tragic.

9/06/2007 08:29:00 PM  
Blogger Shrubageddon said...

Oh, come on, Belliosto, if we don't conquer them, somebody else will.

Long Live Freedom, Liberty and The Pursuit of Happiness.

Replace the wheel with nukes, and now you have your justification for the invasion and destruction of all those non-nuke, ass-backwards cultures around the world. I mean, it was just a matter of time. What a bunch of no nuke losers.

I'll take shape-shifting and ayahuasca over the wheel any day. The Americas were a majestic paradise (the land) before the Europeans laid it to waste in several hundred years. None of that can be reversed until we accept that we are not in hatmony with nature as a culture. No doubt there were some Bad Apple tribes, but from what I have read, at least in North America, the good dominated the bad, not the other way around like it is in Western Culture.

9/06/2007 09:02:00 PM  
Blogger Sounder said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

9/06/2007 09:21:00 PM  
Blogger Sounder said...

Shrub, shrub, shrub,...You act like you want to play rough, but you don't know how, do you? And no, sorry I do not think about you. I simply react spontaneously to the silly letters on the computer screen. Now I will leave you alone soon enough. (You are being persecuted so.) But before that I want for one thing to be clear and plain to you.

When I see people twist forms (Linguistic elements), so as to obscure the context, meaning, or substance of that form, I may very well speak up.

Example; I was applying the gratuitously vitriolic (form) term to your characterization of Ron Paul supporters with (the form) stormtroopers and rape facilitators. Your response is to tie the form 'gratuitously vitriolic' to something you said to Dot, thereby obscuring the substance of the original point.

When my kids were growing up, if they were doing something I did not like, I found that my ultimate weapon was what came to be known as the talking cure. They became like deer in the headlights. They could not imagine that there were so many big words in the world.

Hey, maybe I will finally write my book, co-written by shrub. Now you do not want that to happen, do you shrub?

Thanks Tsoldren.

IC, you may not follow the markets, but if you look you may see, that soon sustainable living is going to become VERY popular.

Word verification is vnclog, but it looks like unclog

9/06/2007 09:39:00 PM  
Blogger Dr. Bombay said...

After his performance last night
in New Hampshire - you know...that
beautiful state of mind where
Ed and Elaine Brown are throwing a
a wicked good party on the 15th,
and if were lucky the armed mercenaries from the IRS and US
Marshall's office will not shoot anyone - Ron Paul can no longer
be ignored by the MSM. They will
try..really fucking try..but its
too late. If you saw any video
of the debate it was quite shocking
how Pro Ron Paul the crowd was..
He also won ALL the polls taken
right after the debate, including
the Fox news poll.
Now..If there really is anything
in Ron Paul's past that is going
to come back and bite him on the
ass...the MSM will tell us pretty
soon..if they don't come up with
anything, and there is a lot of
money being spread around to find
the dirt you can rest assured,
certain people are going to get
very nervous. This guy is catching
fire and they need to put him out
before he burns the whole fucking
thing down...

9/07/2007 02:03:00 AM  
Blogger Spoonerian said...

Mr. Shrubageddon,

I agree 100% that libertarians sound like fools when they harken back to their Founding slave rapists, thieves and mass murderers such as Jefferson and Washington and their beloved constitutions. The federal and state constitutions would certainly limit many of the crimes of the state if they were enforced today, but allusions to these constitutions should always be prefaced with acknowledgement of the great amount of evil they contain.

But Regarding your:

"What does Ron Paul and all those who proclaim liberty and personal freedom presume to do about the problem of Corporate America...because I don't believe the root of the problem is Government...Government, or misused Government is the symptom. Corporate Power and Influence is the root and until that's addressed, nothing will change."

I think the libertarians with their strict individualistic methodology go much, much farther toward clearly articulating what's wrong about "corporate power" and proposing solutions than I've ever heard from statist populists and leftists.

For example, the Libertarian Party platform plank on monopolies upon which Ron Paul stood when he ran for president in 1988 says:

"Laws of incorporation should not include grants of monopoly privilege. In particular, we would eliminate special limits on the liability of corporations for damages caused in non-contractual transactions."

So, the orthodox libertarian position on "corporations" is that governments cannot bestow upon shareholders escape from responsibility for damages that their business associations inflict on victims. Hence, the strict individualist libertarian analysis of "corporate power" asserts that what is commonly called "corporate power" is in fact merely state power thinly disguised. If shareholders stood to be held personally responsible for their actions via their business associations without government protection, then business capital would form in a much more de-centralized manner. This would actually bring about a business climate where business owners were more likely to be more closely involved in the workings and management of the businesses--a goal of the leftists and populists--but achieved without the central state planning--which seems to be the only solution offered by populists and leftists--and, which depend on government goons with guns for enforcement.

The standard Naderite or Green criticism of "corporate power" is barely distinguishable from a criticism of all business activity whatsoever. The libertarian criticism pinpoints exactly where the state power comes into play as well as who the victims are and how they're victimized.

9/07/2007 03:39:00 AM  
Blogger the author said...

Haven't read all comments yet, so I'm probably repeating what others have said.


IC said:


When asked about fighting the PTB, Bucky Fuller laid out the blueprint I'm following:

"You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete."



I agree with this -- I have used similar words myself -- but I would qualify the thought.

Build a completely new model, or perhaps go back to an old model that was never really tried -- a model that had barely been put in place before its subversion began? (I.e. Constitutional government, perhaps with some modifications such as more powerful provisions for honest money, and doing away with the legal fiction of corporate personhood, which sure ain't in the Constitution and in any case, is merely a justice's opinion.)

Could it be that the old model was indeed a far superior model, allowing the maximum freedom required for us to build our own system and our own solutions? You can do a hell of a lot more to make the world a better place when your business and livelihood and income aren't being regulated and taxed out of existence. (Yes, of course we need real and sensible environmental protection policies and so forth; nobody responsible, Ron PAul included, is pro-pollution. But there are certainly better ways to achieve that than what we're doing now.) And in the international realm, you can do so much more when you're not constantly going abroad in search of monsters to battle (monsters created by your own policies).

If you could vote yourself greater freedom to go forth and implement all those great solutions in your head, would you?

The fact is, we'll never have the freedom to "go outside the current political, economic and social structures" that chain us as long as the Big Government Globalist Party is in power.

There's no reason why one cannot work on solutions and at the same time simply do your duty and inform yourself and cast a vote. (Not only the "official" one in November 08, but also the informal polls, such as the online polls which Ron Paul has nearly swept so far!)

So yes, build your parallel systems but at the same time, also register your dissent with the current system by supporting a candidate who has pledged himself to dismantle pretty much everything that makes the current system so evil. (A small, severely limited government can't oppress anyone!) Even IF the system is fixed against such candidates, you'll have sent a powerful message and in the meantime will have become part of a movement that will have awakened many more citizens and will be around after the election to keep on working to awaken more people and generally raise hell. A campaign can be about so much more than a candidate -- particular for a candidate like Ron Paul, whose ideas (i.e., the rule of the law of the land, the Constitution) far overshadow himself as a personality.

You are right about "keeping us at each other's throats." This is what I keep getting on Jeff's case about: his thinking is thoroughly cemented in that musty, dusty "left/right" divide-and-rule scheme.


IC said:

The market is slavery; the community is sanctuary.


I think you misunderstand "the market." THe market arises from the community, and in fact, is what allows the community to grow and prosper in the first place. I think what you mean is that the market needs to be reined in to serve the needs of the community (not pseudo-community institutions of privilege -- such as the Federal Reserve and many others), and that I would wholeheartedly agree with.

Prevent and dismantle oligopolies, monopolies -- primarily in the control of money, which is sort of where it all began. However, one has to realize Big Government and Big BIz go hand in hand. THe rise of centralized power in Washington, post - War of Federal Aggression, was followed by the rise of plutocracy. This was no coincidence. The plutocrats needed a Big Government to enforce their will and to mold the populace to their agenda. This was accomplished through a lot of noise about how we needed a huge government to fight Big Business. Now, after 100 years of such rhetoric, we have both and their both eating our lunch.



Shrub --

The fact that the Founders supported (or, more accurately, failed to overturn) slavery, and some such as Jefferson planted seeds which later would result in genocidal policies against the Indians, is no reason to reject their overall wisdom.

That the authors of a set of lofty ideals failed to live up to them is no a reason to reject the ideals; rather, it's a reason to strive that much harder to realize them.

To say "let's go back to the Constitution," as you well know, is not a call to slaughter Indians and restore slavery. Indeed, if it weren't for the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution we'd have little to judge the Founders against.


Quoting Steven Melik Shelton:

"Even the lauded Constitution that he helped to compose regarded Africans as only three-fifths of a person."


That's a myth and it's too bad Shelton didn't do a bit of research on this issue. It doesn't say slaves were "only three-fifths of a person" ontologically, only for the purpose of apportioning Congressmen. It was actually a compromise that limited the South's congressional representation. THe South wanted each slave to count as 1 person. Dinesh D'souza (who I'm generally not a fan of) explains this in a nutshell here.

The Author, aka africkinamerican

9/07/2007 04:40:00 AM  
Blogger Sounder said...

Spoonerian, thank-you very much, for bringing substance to this conversation. Thanks also to The Author and everyone else.

9/07/2007 07:03:00 AM  
Blogger ericswan said...

I haven't figured out your handle yet. You sign in one way and sign out formally known as Prince. This is for you nonetheless. Put your name on it. I want to dialogue with a person. Step up!

Your Bucky Fuller quote was awesome. Your take on IC's community vs. market is wrong. IC and a few others have moved off the left/right, rich/poor class system. He is on about a giving society not a selling society. And what do we have to give when we have nothing? The value is in your place in the sun. Give some of that back. Your rufuse.. Put in the right place..awesome..wastewater designed into greywater reuse or food waste to compost or the clothes off your back to be recycled if they are made of the right material or your TIME. Volunteer your time. You may be wasting that already. Put your energy into your neighbourhood and recycle the wasted heat, light, goods and your time into your neighbourhood.

Would someone please design an intranet communication sytem that allows for the "giving" in your community. Offer rides to the other 90% of your "materialistic" reality in the here and now dog eat dog world we live in but "give" freely to your neighbourhood with a tithe of 10% of your time.

Put another way, you don't want your neighbours to be without in your off the grid gated moated prison on the planet. If you want to improve this life on earth, then you have to stop dumping on your neighbours. This disconnect of slaves and prisoners providing for your basic needs from some faraway manna from heaven Walmart must wither and die. Commerce must meet the needs of a people and not the other way around. Get connected to your neighbours. We need a safety net of equality and true love.

9/07/2007 07:10:00 AM  
Blogger just_another_dick said...

"Journalists are asked to arrive with an open mind as this is a truth which they are in no position to determine and they may be risking their chances of eternal life. I will be discussing my journey of spiritual redemption, why I know in my heart I am the Messiah and the mission to teach humanity in the run-up to 2012.

This is all rather embarrassing for someone who was an atheist technocrat three years ago. And I am painfully aware how mad all this sounds.

There is however ancient evidence to show that the Messiah is phonetically called ‘David Shayler’. When added to recent signs which have appeared independently of me – including a Messianic Cross of Saturn, Mercury, Venus and the Sun in the skies on 7/7/7, the day I was proclaimed Messiah -- it has become inescapable that a higher power is indicating that I am the anointed or chosen one who has come to save humanity.

To any who might find this surprising, I point out that I have spent ten years standing up for truth, justice and human rights with little concern for my own life, liberty and livelihood.

To clarify the position: I am the last incarnation of the Holy Ghost (aka the Holy Spirit) or the Yeshua or Jesus Spirit (aka the Christ consciousness). As the Holy Spirit is God incarnate as essence, I am God incarnated as spirit and man. Many cultures have accepted that the gods incarnate as humans, including the Egyptians, the Greeks and the Romans. In the West, this knowledge has been preserved as the unwritten Qabalah, the real secret guarded over the centuries by groups like the Templars and the Rosicrucians.

Other incarnations have included Tutenkhamen, King Arthur, Mark Anthony, Leonardo da Vinci, Lawrence of Arabia and Astronges, a Hebrew shepherd and revolutionary leader crucified in Palestine in 1 BC. I am both a re-incarnation of King David and of his bloodline.

It is absolutely clear to me that the world is going to hell in a handcart. Few would dispute that humanity needs a Messiah to get it through these difficult times. Those who follow the real teachings of Jesus – unconditional love and absolute faith -- have nothing to fear from the New Universe."

David Michael Shayler
Hebrew for Beloved King (who) shuffles through the Other World
3 September 2007



I can definitely see why people take this guy seriously.

& I'm all a-tingle with anticipation as I await the Lord's
newest pronouncement.

Although Dave's case would be served better if, at the press conference, he spoke from inside a burning Bush.

As eve would say, "Coo-coo for coe-coe puffs. Coo-coo for coe-coe puffs."

I wonder if Dave realizes that nothing goes better with a new Messiah like a good crucifixion.


& for those who care, the 1st five issues of Marcello Truzzi's Zetetic Scholar are available for download here:http://tricksterbook.com/truzzi/ZeteticScholars.html

Damn. I think I've got a Fortean stiffy

Or, in honor of Dave the Messiah, we'll say I've got a hologram of a stiffy wrapped around a cruise missile.


Spent yesterday writhing in fever so I did the sane thing & watched TV. With all the blonde bimbos strutting their "attitudes" along with their fencepost IQs, I can see why Women's Lib was so necessary.

Girls went from being Stepford Wives to Stepford Rednecks.

What's funnier is that most guys probably think these obnoxiously loud-mouthed cookie cutter bimbettes are actually "hot."

Makes me glad I'm happily married.

& Shrub, to answer your query, nope, don't see Lawrence much anymore. What little I do see of him usually occurs after he's worked 3 straight shifts and has been awake for over 24 hours.

Needless to say, our conversations don't make much sense.



"There are women
in Cypress Grove
And if they catch you,
you don't go home
So get to booking
and don't look back
A one way ticket
on a two way track

They say the water
is cherry wine
And all them women
drunk all the time
Sheriff Jackson
went out the back
And now his daughters
all dress in black

Now tell me

Holy Diver,
where you at?
There's a woman on the hill
in a wide brimmed hat
With a shotgun, .44,
And a razor back boar
in the back of a jacked up Ford."

9/07/2007 12:33:00 PM  
Blogger iridescent cuttlefish said...

Tsoldrin,

Great to hear from you again. Although it might look like there’s a great deal of confusion here over the significance of Ron Paul and his message (in the greater question of “where to now?”), I think that Shrub & Dr. Bombay, Richard, Sounder, surrender, the author, ericswan, DOT and the others who are wrangling with these issues are all helping to tear down the veil that has clouded both our past and our future. Only ericswan, however, seems to be firmly rooted in the only time frame that is “real”—the eternal present, RAW’s Right Here & Now.

I’m not saying that’s not useful to look backward or forward, but there are some severe limitations to such endeavors. Einstein was one of the first to point out that the sequential flow of time, from past to present to future, is largely an illusion, a cultural construct that has little to do with the actual “flow” of time. Recent experiments in retro-causation bear the old man out on this; the implications are not commensurate with our thinking, our belief systems, and our notions of causality. It’s actually extremely discomfiting.

There are, however, certain practical advantages to the perspective that Uncertain Time affords. Most have to do with the pivotal role of one’s frame of reference. I’ve been writing a lot in these past few threads about the problem with “seeing,” for example, and it all comes back to this. Shrub might have lathered a bit too much sarcasm on the notion of progress as defined by the capacity to conquer, but it’s only too justified, considering the use to which our notion of progress has been put. One might even question whether there has ever really been any progress at all since the rise of the West.

Sure, we can travel faster, farther; we can communicate nearly instantaneously, we can “eradicate” certain diseases…but at what cost? When Bucky gave us the ultimatum to convert our energies from the development of weaponry to livingry…or die, he questioned some of our deepest assumptions about who we are and what we’ve done. I’ll grant you that there has been a great deal of ill thought-out rhetoric about the “noble savage” among the New Agers, but Rousseau was not an empty-headed crystal worshipper.

You can’t read Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee or LeGuin’s portrayal of the bombing of Indochina from the indigenous point of view in The Word for World is Forest without wondering whether we might have been better off without this tremendous transformation that Western technology has “achieved.” If you want to have one more look at what’s happened in the Americas since 1492, I have to recommend (again) Charles Mann’s 1491. He’s not selling any political point of view, he’s not wearing the rose-tinted spectacles and he doesn’t shy away from describing the failures of various cultures & practices before that ominous date. What he does do is to stitch together a mosaic of what that world looked like before it was destroyed, based on some historical research but primarily from recent (and surprising) archeological and anthropological findings.

What he found was that the Americas was a mix of very diverse cultures which had, for the most part, achieved sustainability…and more. As we begin to build models of sustainability now, from scratch, no one is suggesting some sort of turning back the hands of time. There’s a reason that the Luddites have been given such a bad name (not to mention numerous death sentences and other brutal reactions in their day): they didn’t object to “progress” but to the commodification of their labor. They were skilled artisans who took a great deal of pride in their work. When the new looms were brought in, they were denigrated, broken, injured, unemployed, and cast aside so that shoddy goods could be mass-produced to “satisfy the markets.” What a lovely phrase.

It can also be translated as “enrich the Owners and enslave the workers.”

You guys who support Ron Paul’s identification of the collusion of Big Business and Big Government are correct insofar as that’s how monopolies are born, but you haven’t begun to question the underlying assumptions on which the market system is based.

Namely, whether we really need them at all.

Defenders of the market system tell us that it’s the only way to live, that goods & services are provided faster and more efficiently than under any other system, etc, etc; that a truly free market will regulate itself, as if it were some sort of natural system, the economic ecosystem of Man. They “prove” this thesis by comparing it with centrally-planned socialism…when the latter it itself a market-based system!

Again, ericswan is the only one here who has intuited the seemingly counterintuitive alternative: instead of Taking, we could be Leaving. It’s as hard to see as Magellan’s ships were for the indigenous Amerinds and the humanity and stable civilization of those people were for the conquerors to perceive because it goes against the grain of everything we think we know. Mired in concepts like Malthusian/Darwinian linear increase and “creation of wealth” through extraction and exploitation, we cannot (literally) see the forest for the trees whose only value is calculated in board feet and man hours.

More than the Greeks, more than Newton, more than anyone else, it was Descartes who formalized our blindness when he imposed the enduring dualism of subject and object on our thinking. Commodification is based on objectivication. As Jeff has many times reminded us, we are trapped, perhaps drowning in semiotics. How else could it be when our language itself, the lens through which we see the world has fifty nouns for every verb? How can we hope to understand the process that is life when both “process” and “life” are things, not processes?!

To understand what this means, you’ll have to read Dan Moonhawk Alford’s brief but rewarding MANIFESTING WORLDVIEWS IN LANGUAGE; for the practical implications in terms of all this history we’re caught up in here, try oft-cited, truly amazing his The Great Whorf Hypothesis Hoax: Sin, Suffering and Redemption in Academe, where you’ll find this:

Substance and Matter in the English Worldview

One of Whorf's most important insights that get lost in the Whorf Hypothesis Hoax is the very real possibility that some of our least questioned assumptions about reality, including 'time,' 'space,' and 'matter,' are more like verbal hallucinations born of a noun-happy family of languages that look at the world in this way, rather than deep 'intuitions' of the 'really real' state of reality. That is, we all live our everyday habitual lives as if these notions are real, and not just part of our language and its way of helping us 'see' reality. We have seen how 'time' in our normal sense is such an hallucination, and according to Heisenberg was abolished by Einstein's mathematics. (48) It is only the existence of languages other than those of the Indo-European family that can bring in this counter-evidence to a worldview logic grown wild and considering itself "true" in the absence of just such exceptions.

As I've teased you with before, astronomer Sir James Jeans told us that the universe is looking less and less like a great machine and more and more like a great thought. Heisenberg assures us that the universal "substance" in classical terms is energy, which can transform into light, heat, matter, and other vibrations. But wait -- energy, even in the form of electrons, which don't exist as nouns -- is what drives the images we see on TV. Are we just enmeshed in a kind of reality-TV? But, you say, these things are made of particles and particles are made of elementary particles.

If you were drinking I'd call it the alcohol talking; since you're not, I'll have to call it the language talking. We just call them particles because it's difficult to do otherwise in European languages. I dreamed I was a butterfly, flitting from flower to flower and flying the great expanse, and then as a butterfly I settled down for the night and dreamed I was a man... Unfortunately, there's very little evidence against this view at this point right now.

Perhaps this is one of those glass-being-half-full-or-half-empty concepts. Heisenberg points to the defining moment in history when the glass became half-empty for those of Western European descent:
However, the emphasis on experience [in the rise of natural science] was connected with a slow and gradual change in the aspect of reality. While in the Middle Ages what we nowadays call the symbolic meaning of a thing was in some way its primary reality, the aspect of reality changed toward what we can perceive with our senses. And what we can see and touch became primarily real. And this new concept of reality could be connected with a new activity: we can experiment and see how things really are. (49)
I hope we allow by now that "complementarity rules" -- that the real answer may indeed be found in the tension between the matter realm and the quantum/ spirit/meaning realm. (50) It is after all a kind of accident of nature that we as English speakers have a habitual cultural tendency to see everything in terms of nouns and sensory things; had we been born speakers of other languages, as I hope I have shown so far, we might 'see' the same eventings in relationship and process terms rather than thing terms, 'seeing' and reporting reality as the dancing rather than the dancers.

Neither we nor speakers of Native American languages actually had much choice in the matter, if you look at it that way. However, modern physics has shown that dancing is the 'substance' of the universe (51) -- verby, not nouny. As the end of World War II showed, nouns only become unstuck and become verbs again with the most explosive of eventings, often followed by destructive fallout.

If we assumed a new cultural attitude of paying attention to the dancing rather than the dancers, which our whole language mitigates against, unfortunately -- of knowing two hundred words for different 'states' or rhythms of consciousness instead of two hundred words for roads or two thousand words for makes and models of automobiles -- we might, as Native Americans do, finally just give up trying to 'explain' it and call it all a great mystery. After all, we know now (and even Galileo knew back then) that we project colors and taste and smells onto our experience of the world, that atoms do not have these sensory properties and they are filled in by our own senses. How much more than that are we also projecting? And onto what? And what is it in reality that we're responding to in this way?

And, even more to the point, this delicious rant:

Part IId. Kicking the Corpse

Perhaps you can now fully appreciate why this continual -- and for decades increasing -- academic smokescreen around Whorf disturbs me so much. And these are only the most recent examples of an essentially vapid yet acrimonious debate that stretches back for half a century as Whorf's critics have systematically simplified his elegant and complex thoughts into fodder for the antique Newtonian shredder, making it up for him as they went along -- and staying anonymous -- when they couldn't pin him down to saying what they had characterized him as saying. And then they trashed their own simplifications, apparently clueless about the larger and staggering implications of what they were trashing -- or were they?

These fairly recent examples of out-and-out Whorf-trashing by Pinker and Malotki, regardless of the excellence of the rest of their work, gave an unmistakably loud and clear message to linguistics students and professionals and non-linguists alike: It's perfectly okay to talk about the ideas of Benjamin Whorf as long as (1) you make sure to muddy the waters by stuffing him in someone else's 'determinism hypothesis' straightjacket, and (2) when you're done, you ritually kick his corpse, turn out the lights, and close the door. Only then will the universalist gods of modern linguistics and the other social sciences be properly appeased, it seems.

Underlying this perhaps unintendedly deceptive scholarship and public reporting is a deep fear that the logic of Western European languages doesn't really match the logic of reality after all, or that it's only one of many that are equally true -- a bitter pill to swallow for those raised on the 'natural' superiority of Western European thinking over that of less 'civilized' indigenous peoples. I hesitate to call this 'racist,' since I really can't get behind a term less than a hundred years old with this meaning which has done nothing but needlessly further divide humanity (religion and place of origin have always been enough to pit people against each other sufficiently), but it can at the very least be called colonializing -- part of the 'superior' colonialistic mindset which has been wreaking havoc on the Americas for over 500 years: beginning with a sad history of physical slavery for this continent's original inhabitants, moving on to 'civilized' economic slavery in a reservation system, culminating in cognitive imperialism, the last stage of cultural imperialism, with Indian children being kidnapped by the federal government and sent to 'English-only' boarding schools thousands of miles away from their families in order to destroy Native culture, knowledge and languages. Many or most Native Americans of 'baby-boomer' age and older -- people you may know! -- were actual victims of this barbaric bureaucratic carrying out of the will of the descendants of the Invaders which tried to wipe out the 'differences' between Native Americans and Europeans. Native Americans are also presently experiencing spiritual terrorism as disrespectful 'wannabe's, like Mickey in 'The Sorcerer's Apprentice," appropriate millennia-old spiritual rituals and then teach them to others for profit.


I’d recommend reading the whole thing (what I haven’t managed to quote—sorry!) to really understand this why and how we’re stuck. As admirable as the Libertarian position is on drugs and, well, other such liberties, it still buys into the entropy of the market swindle. You’re right, Tsoldrin, when you say we’re not ready to move beyond scarcity, but that’s only because we can’t see beyond what we’ve been told is there.

If we wanted to actually do it, instead of talking about whether we can or if they'd let us, well, that's even more easily answered, isn't it? Tell us more about your efforts to move off the Grid...

9/07/2007 12:46:00 PM  
Blogger Dr. Bombay said...

Speaking of getting off the grid..
A friend told me she had read
somewhere that for the amount of
money we have spent murdering the
citizens of Iraq - $500 billion and
counting - we could have installed
solar panels on every home in the
US and put a Prius in every driveway..

9/07/2007 01:28:00 PM  
Blogger just_another_dick said...

Considering, as of 2004, that the top 5% wage earners paid 57% of all income taxes, while the bottom 50% paid little or nothing, why the fuck would they want to solar panel your house & give you a Prius when they can blow shit up from a good safe distance & then watch it on their big screen TVs?

Sounds like the latter choice gives them much more bang for their buck.

"If you stop in for a beer, not only do we want you to blow all the money in your wallet, but we want you to max out your credit card as well."
Owner of Coyote Ugly on my TV 9/6/07

Spoken like a true capitalist, eh?

It does make one wonder about the real motives behind the drive to abolish the IRS though.

I also wonder if anyone asked Aaron Russo, while he was still breathing, why he took such an interest in the legality of the IRS?

I wonder if he'd say, "Well, I was making money hand over fist turning out worthless, crap-filled movies like Trading Places & I realized the gov-ment was heisting huge swaths of it. In the spirit of mo fo me & less fo u I started digging.

Nah! That couldn't be it, could it?

9/07/2007 02:40:00 PM  
Blogger surrender said...

It turns out 'paper or plastic' is a life or death question for our environment.

According to Vincent Coob, founder of reusablebags.com, about 500 billion to 1 trillion plastic bags are used worldwide every year and are causing a global epidemic. The enormous demand for plastic bags ties into the surging global demand for oil -- plastic bags are made from ethylene, a petroleum byproduct. In the United States alone, an estimated 12 million barrels of oil is used annually to make plastic bags that Americans consume.

Each year across the world some 500 billion plastic bags are used, and only a tiny fraction of them are recycled. Most of them will have a short lifetime with a consumer -- they'll be used for the few minutes it takes to get from the store to home and then they're thrown away.

But what does "away" really mean? Plastic shopping bags can last up to a thousand years in a landfill. In the environment, they break down into tiny, toxic particles that become part of the soil and water.

"Eliminating the use of disposable plastic bags is about more than just the environment," said Barger, "it is about health, sustainability, economics and focusing on what kind of quality of life we want."

A growing list of communities and countries are beginning to rethink their dependence on plastic bags. Already a complete or partial ban on the bags has been approved in Australia, South Africa, parts of India, China, Italy, Bangladesh and Taiwan.

Probably the best thing we can do, though, is change our behavior as consumers and begin valuing durability instead of disposability. "There is a crisis happening right now," said Barger. "We have got to stop the flow of plastic today. People really want some organization to fix this problem. But we are the only people that can fix it."


I posted excerpts from this article after reading the recent posts that offer some well-thought out solutions to how we can avoid total annihilation.

Sometimes we elude to the fact that it starts with each one of us individually, how our individual relationship to the “way it is” and “how we see” things, as opposed to political, social and environmental actions that might possibly “turn things around”.

I think this article is an example of the unbelievable way we continue to use a little thing like a plastic bag which is causing SO MUCH DAMAGE to the environment and to our well-being.


IMHO this is the challenge we are facing today. What are we willing to do FIRST, as individuals, not libertarians or republicans or whatever we like to label ourselves? What are you willing to DO today to change the way you live life? understanding that even the most insignificant action, such as carrying your corporate made and sold stuff home in an item,is destroying life on the planet.

All of the contributors here express highly intelligent and articulated opinions on how we might create another way of life but….
I have no faith that anyone here will stop using plastic bags today or tomorrow. Even with the information that using plastic bags is contributing to an environmental global crisis, could you or would you stop?…….

We are not “victims” of the system, we ARE the system, and as long as we keep participating in the destruction of the planet on an individual basis it does not matter who is the next president or what new convenience product the corporate world dangles in our face to make our lives “easier”. The use of plastic bags is only an example of how totally unconscious we are about our REAL relationship to the Earth and to each other.


We could elect Ron Paul in a year and half or …........
we could stop using plastic bags today and make a real difference in the quality of life around the world.

9/07/2007 05:27:00 PM  
Blogger Dr. Bombay said...

Well..lets see..under the current
tax structure the top 130,000
taxpayers own more assets than
the 130,000,000 below them. The
FACT is is that the RICH get to hide
their income and the middle class
doesn't. Check Dubya's tax return,
sure he paid more in taxes than I
did, but I paid A HIGHER percentage
of my take home pay than he did.
Besides the fact that the 16th Amend.
to the Constitution was NEVER
legally ratified and so on and so
on. Do you know anything about
hedge funds? Check the rate at which they are taxed for the sake
of income..15%!! Most working
stiffs pay at least twice that
rate. Thats how the rich get
richer and stay that way.

"Every great fortune is started
by a crime.."
Balzac

9/07/2007 05:28:00 PM  
Blogger just_another_dick said...

Thanks for the lesson Doc, but it really doesn't refute a fucking thing.

But, by all means, disband the IRS, cease all income tax, & we'll see who really suffers, the rich or everybody else.

We'll also see who laughs all the way to the bank.

Bet it won't be you or me.

9/07/2007 06:02:00 PM  
Blogger just_another_dick said...

I apologize right from the outset here Doc, cause I really don't mean to gun for you, but when you said this :

"If you saw any video
of the debate it was quite shocking
how Pro Ron Paul the crowd was..
He also won ALL the polls taken
right after the debate, including
the Fox news poll.'

I had to laugh out loud.

So Doc, what do you think the odds are that, if you took the same crowd of typical American yutzes, put them a great big H.G. Well's Time Machine, & sent them back to one of Bushes "we really need to invade Iraq" speeches, they would have cheered just as loudly &, if polled, would have glowingly said what a swell guy GW was?

9/07/2007 07:16:00 PM  
Blogger Sounder said...

Surrender, there are many things (or processes) that we are unconscious of. You and I may be conscious of the harm, of plastics bags lets say, but there could be any number of issues where we ought to be, yet we are not conscious. (We will leave that be and stick with the bullshit in front of our faces.) Lets think in terms of leverage. You or I are driven to conscious treatment of the issue for ethical reasons. So what can be done to spark this ethical response in the broader population?

IC makes the good point about the dominance of nouns in our language and it being the dance rather than the dancer. Anyway, the general ethic of 'sensitive' types dispenses with object oriented consciousness (when it can).

Therefor, if we wish to live in a more comfortable environment, we will push for correspondence models of reality rather than category based models of reality.

9/07/2007 07:59:00 PM  
Blogger surrender said...

SOUNDER:

Could it be this simple?:

If you were connected enough to life and the Earth and you KNEW that throwing away that plastic shopping bag will DEFINITELY kill plant and animal life and the toxins in the soil may find its way to your body, why WOULDN"T you stop using them??????

My real question is why do we knowingly and consciously continue to contribute to the destruction of our only life support? Why is it so impossible to change our behavior, and isn't that necessary before you can talk about "models of reality"???

9/07/2007 09:37:00 PM  
Blogger Shrubageddon said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

9/07/2007 10:24:00 PM  
Blogger Shrubageddon said...

I have no faith that anyone here will stop using plastic bags today or tomorrow.

Yee of little faith, Surrender. The wife and I have stopped using plastic bags. We purchased canvas bags to tote our groceries....bags we use over and over, rather than throwing them away after one use. When we are in an establishment where that is not possible, we opt for paper. If we only have the option of plastic, we use it for other things around the house, so we at least get several uses out of it. My wife recycles the remaining plastic bags if there are any remaining.

I'll await as Sounder calls me a faggot for my wasted efforts.

See, Surrender, the Indians deserved to be conquered because of their love of nature and the land, but we deserve liberty and freedom because we can't control what harm we do to the environment.

It's all just a matter of substance and form. Please review my blog and let me know what you think. It may not seem like much at first glance....but if you look close enough, there's a message. But then you knew that, didn't you Surrender?

9/07/2007 10:47:00 PM  
Blogger iridescent cuttlefish said...

That’s a great example, surrender, of how a small “lifestyle” change can have a massive environmental impact and even lead to wider changes in public awareness (Bucky's better model). As it happens, a friend of mine who keeps an eye on these things sent me a link a while back for this company making Bio-Bags, which are a sort of chemurgic plastic, totally biodegradable, no polyethylene, no GMO crops, etc.

So, if folks demanded that their retailers use these Bio-Bags, and then happened to visit their website, where they might find the golden nugget: that this type of plastic “can be worked using the same processes as for traditional plastics and with similar output,” they could even be moved to wonder why we use petroleum for plastics at all. When they start digging into the Death of Chemurgy, they could stumble across Dr. Dave’s history lesson and then big wild cats would be out of more than just their shopping bags.

Or is this sort of sequence of possibilities just too If You Give A Mouse A Cookie? I know the hard-bitten skeptics would prefer Robot Chicken's version, but that’s not the one my kids read to me and they’re pretty good judges of character, not having had their minds channeled as long as we all have…

You guys ever read Stone Soup? (Ah, but that's just more of my syntropy pipeweed. Sorry.)

9/07/2007 11:29:00 PM  
Blogger Dr. Bombay said...

Hey just another dick,
First off you said "We'll
see who laughs all the way to the
bank." Well...The RICH own all the banks, including the Federal Reserve
which, as I have pointed out, is
neither "Federal" nor has a "Reserve".
And the RICH, through their proxies
in congress, make sure the tax code
is written in such a way as to
benefit them. So, to answer your
question, we don't have to wait and see who is going to laugh all the way to the bank. We already have the answer. I failed to mention
in my earlier post what it was that compelled Aaron Russo to take a closer look at the IRS. He began to buy large quantities of gold when
he became aware that Federal Reserve bank notes are
a fiat currency and are barely
worth the paper they are printed
on. The gold was also a tax write off for some reason.
Three years after he began to buy gold, the IRS contacted him and
told him he could no longer take
a deduction on his gold. Which is
fine. The tax code changes all the time right? But then the IRS told
Aaron that the code was RETROACTIVE
dating back three years which,
coincidentally was when he began to
buy gold. Then they sent him a tax bill in the amount of $800,000.00
or so for a write off that was
PERFECTLY LEGAL at the time he took
it. Now..lets say your like me
and you have been going to Dunkin
Donuts every day for the last twenty years and you have NEVER
been charged a tax on your medium
ice French Vanilla xtra-txra. Then,
one day, you go into your favorite
D&D and the sweet young thing
behind the counter tells you that
starting today you will pay a tax
on your coffee and...oh yeah..you
owe us $800,000.00 for the tax on
all the coffees that you have bought in the last twenty years. Well...
FUCK EM!! Right? Just out of curiosity have you ever watched
America: From Freedom to Fascism?
It answers a lot of these questions
so, you know, I don't have to. Don't
be turned off because Trading Places "sucked". Hey the Rose was
pretty good though, right?
Now..as far as the people standing
up and cheering for the Iraq war,
we had been led to believe Iraq
and Saddam Hussein were responsible
for everything evil in the world
up to and including Brittney Spears
shaving her...head. But now?
We know those fuckers lied to us
from day one, killing hundreds
of thousands of people in the
process and making billions for
themselves and their cronies. So..
Stand up..like Ron Paul is doing,
and say UP AGAINST THE WALL
MOTHERFUCKERS! ITS TIME TO KICK
OUT THE JAMS!! Well Ron didn't really say that ..I did. But you know what I mean right?
Now..Could you do me a small favor?
You said in an earlier post that
you are "The last incarnation of Christ". Since you are the last,
you must have met "The First", and
I have always wondered who killed
the first. Was it the Jews or was it just bad press?? And please,
don't worry about "gunnin" for me.
I like a good argument. It must be
the mick in me...

9/08/2007 02:56:00 AM  
Blogger Dr. Bombay said...

Oh yeah,, I almost forgot..That
"new" tape of Osama? That's actually
Frank Zappa at a Halloween party
in Hollywood around 1982. He was
promoting Sheik Yerbouti at the time.
How do I know? I took the video..
Frank was a great guy but he could
never handle his alcohol.

9/08/2007 03:09:00 AM  

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